IS it wrong to ask what happened to CSB?

[Crackpot]

I'm of the opinion that this whole thread in it's current incarnation should be dropped or taken to the CSB

[Joe Guy]

So Gwen did the right thing, she just mishandled the opposition.

The 'right thing' would have been to do what the majority vote called for. It would also be the right thing for Gar to do.

If Gar had never written 'this is your board' and had instead implied, as Gwen did, that 'this is my board and all but two of you are inconsequential', you would be correct.

[Lord Jim]

I'm of the opinion that this whole thread in it's current incarnation should be dropped or taken to the CSB

Well CP, you're entitled to your opinion, but personally I have no intention of moving my comments on the state of affairs at the CSB over to a forum where the discussion will get drowned by a flood of postings by the resident paranoid lunatic...

I certainly can not be said to be obsessing on this. If you look around, you'll notice that since I've started posting here I've started at least half a dozen threads on a wide variety of subjects, and added comments to numerous other ones. But I spent nearly 10 years posting at that forum, (others here spent even more) and I don't think that it's going to in any way destabilize this board to have one thread where we discuss our thoughts about what happened at that place or what is going on there currently.

It's obvious that there is some disagreement among us about what happened there and why, but so long as we are able to discuss our disagreements in a civil way, I don't see the problem.

[Crackpot]

Well CP, you're entitled to your opinion, but personally I have no intention of moving my comments on the state of affairs at the CSB over to a forum where the discussion will get drowned by a flood of postings by the resident paranoid lunatic...

as of yet steve has not found the ability to actually talk over your post and aware of few posters who actually read what he posts anymore.

I certainly can not be said to be obsessing on this.

Never said you were. Didn't single you out either.

I spent nearly 10 years posting at that forum, (others here spent even more) and I don't think that it's going to in any way destabilize this board to have one thread where we discuss our thoughts about what happened at that place or what is going on their currently.

IMO it serves no purpose where as if you posted it at the CSB it at least has a snowballs chance in hell at informing Gar of your opinion. I certainly understand your unwillingness to want to post there. I share that opinion. And I understand the need to vent. But when it comes to debate on the subject it opens this forum up to the ill will that poisoned that place with the absolute net positive of nothing because it has zero chance of affecting things over there.

[Lord Jim]

But when it comes to debate on the subject it opens this forum up to the ill will that poisoned that place

Well, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree about that....

As I said, so long as the discourse is civil, (which it certainly has been) and the topic isn't bleeding over into other discussions, (which it isn't) I really don't see the problem.

[tyro]

So Gwen did the right thing, she just mishandled the opposition.

The 'right thing' would have been to do what the majority vote called for. It would also be the right thing for Gar to do.

If Gar had never written 'this is your board' and had instead implied, as Gwen did, that 'this is my board and all but two of you are inconsequential', you would be correct.

I don’t agree.

Don’t forget that we already had an outcry on the 30 minutes limit when Garaelb was fully in charge.

And the outcry went away.

Had he been present for the upgrade, he would still want to leave it there and I bet he would have handled it such that few if any posters would have gotten angry about it.

But people did get angry which means they drilled their position into the ground, made the small matter into an issue and went into battle.

The time limit isn’t that big of a deal. The big deal is the baggage people have created over fighting over it.

Admit it, you are more angry as to how Gwen responded to your concerns than you are that you only have 30 minutes to edit your posts.

[Joe Guy]

Admit it, you are more angry as to how Gwen responded to your concerns than you are that you only have 30 minutes to edit your posts.

I thought that was quite obvious. Isn't that what everyone was really complaining about?

The issue changed very early on in the discussion from the actual time limit to the issue of whether or not Gwen was going to respond to the overwhelming majority's opinion or that of her two friends.

[Lord Jim]

Well, I would first again point out that we had an unlimited editing system for years without any problem, so I personally never saw the need to change it back to 30 minutes. (Or an hour)

Admit it, you are more angry as to how Gwen responded to your concerns than you are that you only have 30 minutes to edit your posts.

Well I won't speak for anyone else, but in my case I was most angry at the fact that Gwen arbitrarily over ruled the clearly expressed position of the vast majority of active posters to impose her position. For me, that was the crux of the matter.

As I said if the vote had gone the other way I wouldn't have been happy about it, but I would have accepted whatever the majority wanted on the issue.

Gwen (or anyone who believes in the "this is your board" concept) should have done the same.

So I guess the answer would be that, yes, it wasn't the editing time limit itself that was central, but that it was still considerably more than just how Gwen "responded". This was more than a matter of "bad PR". It was the substantive fact she used the issue in order to clearly establish the fact that she was the dictator of the board by over ruling the clearly expressed position of the majority of members.

I can't think of any way that Gwen could have put some sort of smiley face on that action (over ruling the majority to make the point that she was the dictator) that would have made it acceptable. It was that action itself that to me, was intrinsically unacceptable.

How does one go about doing that in a "good" way?

That's not to say that on top of doing something intrinsically unacceptable, Gwen didn't do this intrinsically unacceptable thing in the worst way possible; she certainly did. To first be misleading by saying it was just a glitch, and then change to, "it's going to be a topic for discussion" and then after the discussion and losing a vote on the issue turning around and in effect saying, "Well fuck y'all, I'm going to do what I want to do anyway", was definitely the worst possible way to do something that was intrinsically unacceptable. (At least intrinsically unacceptable if the "your board" concept is to have any substantive meaning.)

[Lord Jim]

Actually, in thinking about it further, I can think one (hypothetically) "good" way this could have been handled:

If one were such a talented sort that they were actually able to make a persuasive argument that convinced a majority of the members that even after years of having unlimited editing with absolutely no problem that cutting it back to 30 minutes or an hour was a good or necessary thing, then the intrinsically unacceptable act of over riding the overwhelming majority view to impose your will doesn't even arise; when the vote was held, you'd carry the day.

Frankly I have a hard time as a practical matter imagining how one could have made such an argument, and apparently in the lengthy discussion we had nobody in favor of the one hour limit succeeded in making that argument, (or else the vote would have gone the other way, by definition) but I have to concede that it is at least hypothetically possible that it could have been done.

[tyro]

Actually, in thinking about it further, I can think one (hypothetically) "good" way this could have been handled:

Again Jim, it was handled some many years ago.

No one huffed and puffed at that time.


Some weekend when I am really bored, I think I might try and find when the edit time was relaxed. What post was the first to make use of the extra time and would that tell me anything? Did someone open it up for nefarious reasons and forget to put it back? Am I starting to sound like Steve?

[loCAtek]

As a matter of fact, there is 'Co-Adminship' going on now, with Garaelb back as Admin and Gwen is assisting.
Dramatic changes may not have occurred immediately upon with his return, but he was never known for his speedy service. All I know is at this time, he's carefully considering all the options.

“It does not matter how slowly you go as long as you do not stop.” – Confucius

“Wisely, and slow. They stumble that run fast.” – William Shakespeare

[Lord Jim]

Am I starting to sound like Steve?

Not at all Tyro...

I was able to understand every word you wrote...

I know it has to have been at least 3 years that unlimited editing was in effect, since I came back to the board in 2007 after taking a sabbatical from the place for a couple of years, and given the way I post it wouldn't have been very long before I would have tried to go in and correct something after longer than an hour; if I hadn't been able to do so, I would have noticed....

So whatever may have gone on much earlier, (which frankly I don't recall anything about) the issue this past spring was, "What is the justification for cutting the editing time back to an hour, when it's been unlimited for years with no problems?"

The case for that was obviously not made effectively enough to persuade all but a handful of members that the change was justified.

But the change was imposed anyway.

Which was the real issue.

[Gob]

I'm of the opinion that this whole thread in it's current incarnation should be dropped or taken to the CSB

Do you really think this thread would have a hope in hell of achieving anything once the triumvirate got involved in it?

[Joe Guy]

I think it's good to have a thread like this in which we can discuss our reasons for being disgusted with the CSB. I believe that most of us would like to "fix" that place, but we realize that it has been ruined by Steve & Gwen.

editec is not to blame , in my opinion, as much the other two. editec has always been a person you can have a conversation with at some level if you address him directly.

But Gwen & Steve act mostly like a couple of retarded love-monkeys. They don't act logical because they are blinded by their devotion to trying to make each other not look stupid to the rest of us.

(and quad is the frustrated and jealous fourth person)

Maybe I should have posted this over there...

[Crackpot]

they've been very quiet with a notable but easily ignored exception since Gar has returned.

[Gob]

I have to disagree Joe. I believe Edi is a deeply manipulative person (and a liar) and that he does far more "behind the scenes" than we are aware of.

[Joe Guy]

I have to disagree Joe. I believe Edi is a deeply manipulative person (and a liar) and that he does far more "behind the scenes" than we are aware of.

You may be right, but I still think editec is not the biggest reason for the CSB being screwed up.

The biggest problem with the CSB is Gwen (with her administrative power over the CSB) and the paranoid & pathetic Steve (who Gwen has taken under her wing).

Gwen will not accept our criticism of that relationship. That's why Gwen has made all of her contrarian decisions.

[kristina]

I went back to some of the earlier years of the CSB, and was astonished at how far Steve has devolved. I used to quite like him.

[Lord Jim]

I think it's good to have a thread like this in which we can discuss our reasons for being disgusted with the CSB. I believe that most of us would like to "fix" that place, but we realize that it has been ruined by Steve & Gwen.

editec is not to blame , in my opinion, as much the other two. editec has always been a person you can have a conversation with at some level if you address him directly.

I agree with all of that.

(I know you don't Strop...we've discussed this at length...we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one)

they've been very quiet with a notable but easily ignored exception since Gar has returned.

A large part of reason for that is because no one is there to challenge Steve on his lies and lunacy anymore...If you don't confront a crazy person, they will generally tend to remain calm...

I went back to some of the earlier years of the CSB, and was astonished at how far Steve has devolved. I used to quite like him.

I agree Kristina. I believe that Steve's descent into madness began after his wife left him. (Though whether she left him and he started to go crazy, or he was starting to go crazy and that's why she left him, is impossible to know.) If you read the essay he wrote about it, you can see the genesis of all the bitterness and resentments that have come into full bloom....

Then he became increasingly insular and isolated; replacing the real life he had had previously, (which helped to keep him grounded in reality) with a constant stream of input from weird beard wacko conspiracy websites. On top of this, he had Gwen, his supposed friend, who instead of trying to pull him back into the real world, reinforced his increasing dementia by constantly agreeing with him and congratulating him for his great "personal growth"; treating him like was becoming some sort insightful seer of deep, profound truths, that lesser mortals simply couldn't understand or appreciate. (Rather than just becoming increasingly more mentally ill and detached from reason and reality, which is what was really going on)

I have a theory as to why she did this; I believe that Gwen knew that so long as Steve was in this condition he would be totally dependent on her for emotional support...(can you imagine a guy with Steve's outlook and paranoia actually being able to go out and form new relationships?) and that keeping him in this needy state was important to Gwen, because Gwen needs to be needed. A profoundly unhealthy relationship for both parties...

It started off slowly at first, but like a bolder rolling down hill, the decline of his mental faculties and ability to distinguish fantasy from reality accelerated. (It continued to accelerate during the year editec was off the board, BTW) It eventually built to the point where he has now become totally deranged, seeing enemies everywhere, lashing out incoherently, lying non-stop, (that may very well be because he has become so unhinged that he has completely lost the ability to tell fact from fiction) and absolutely convinced that he has reached some sort of "higher plane" that "weaker minds" simply cannot comprehend. (Rather than realizing the fact that he isn't being "comprehended" because he has become, well...incomprehensible)

[Joe Guy]

I have a theory as to why she did this; I believe that Gwen knew that so long as Steve was in this condition he would be totally dependent on her for emotional support...(can you imagine a guy with Steve's outlook and paranoia actually being able to go out and form new relationships?) and that keeping him in this needy state was important to Gwen, because Gwen needs to be needed. A profoundly unhealthy relationship for both parties...

It started off slowly at first, but like a bolder rolling down hill, the decline of his mental faculties and ability to distinguish fantasy from reality accelerated. (It continued to accelerate during the year editec was off the board, BTW) It eventually built to the point where he has now become totally deranged, seeing enemies everywhere, lashing out incoherently, lying non-stop, (that may very well be because he has become so unhinged that he has completely lost the ability to tell fact from fiction) and absolutely convinced that he has reached some sort of "higher plane" that "weaker minds" simply cannot comprehend. (Rather than realizing the fact that he isn't being "comprehended" because he has become, well...incomprehensible)

I agree with all of the above.

And that's what makes Gwen at least as sick as Steve.