Plan B: Need Doctor Rx For Teens

[BoSoxGal]

And the cases of child abuse and child neglect are ubiquitous - much, much more prevalent than they were before the invention of The Pill, or the ready availability of abortion.

Proof of this assertion?

Thus, there is no reason on earth to suppose that the ready availability of this new means of preventing pregnancy will have any measurable effect on the number of "unwanted" or "accidental" births in this country. People - and in particular young girls - will simply start behaving even more irresponsibly, with some of the pregnancies blocked by this pill, but many more of them going forward through carelessness or neglect.

What I am supportive of is a national campaign to discourage irresponsible sexual behavior by whatever means are at our disposal, and to discourage people from having children that they are not prepared or able to nurture. Such a campaign, in conjunction with responsible use of "artificial" birth control might have the desired effects.

Making this pill readily available (OTC) will, as I speculated above, simply encourage more irresponsible behavior, particularly among young people who should not be engaging in reproductive behavior in the first place.

Teenagers have sex irresponsibly. They have for time immemorial, and will continue to forever, is my guess. It's biologically driven and any amount of moralizing won't change that.

If anything, the pro-life moralizing, IMHO, adds to the problem of women and men carrying through with unwanted/unintended pregnancies and raising children they don't want and are ill-prepared to raise. Those children more often than not end up abused and/or neglected. And no, most unwanted children won't be given up for adoption - having been pregnant myself, I know very well the amazing bonding power of pregnancy hormones, which I think in so many cases results in a woman deciding to keep a baby she had considered giving up. Unfortunately, those hormones dissipate post-natally into postpartum depression in many cases, the mother/child bond is disrupted, and dysfunction ensues.

Frankly, with 7 billion people on the planet and a few billion of them starving, I have zero issues with easy access to Plan B, OR abortion.

[Andrew D]

And while The Pill is not exactly free and abortions are not exactly available at the Drive-thru window, their availability is pretty much universal.

That is false.

Although Planned Parenthood is not the only provider of birth control in the US, it is by far the largest; it serves as a good proxy for the availability of birth control in the US in general. Consider the numbers of Planned Parenthood health centers in various States:

Kansas (pop. 2,802,134): 3
Nebraska (pop. 1,783,432): 3
Tennessee (pop. 6,214,888): 3

Alabama (pop. 4,661,900): 2
Arkansas (pop. 2,855,390): 2
Idaho (pop. 1,523,816): 2
Kentucky (pop. 4,269,245): 2
Louisiana (pop. 4,410,796): 2
South Carolina (pop. 4,479,800): 2
South Dakota (pop. 804,194): 2

Mississippi (pop. 2,938,618): 1
West Virginia (pop. 1,814,468): 1
Wyoming (pop. 532,668): 1

North Dakota (pop. 641,481): 0

A total population of 39,732,830 is served by only 26 Planned Parenthood health centers. That hardly constitutes "pretty much universal" availability.

[rubato]

"... My God, what a twisted viewpoint. As though holding someone responsible for their behavior is a form of punishment. As though a living human being has no more significance than a pencil mark on a piece of paper than can be erased from existence with no thought other than whether it's existence might inconvenience someone.

Fucked up.

"Holding someone responsible" means in most cases condemning them and their children to a life of poverty and ignorance by depriving them of emergency birth control.

One of the ways that ignorance reproduces itself in conservative communities.


yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

Come on, Andrew. The number of PP offices is indicative of the general availability of BC? You gotta be kidding.

The arrogance of my Boomer generation is astounding.

"...from time immemorial..."

Prior to the general availability of The Pill, the incidence of teen pregnancy was a tiny fraction of what it is now. High School girls were not fucking like rabbits. Pregnancy did occur, but it was a matter of one or two girls in a high school class of several hundred may have gotten pregnant. Anyone proposing a Day Care center in a High School would have been considered a lunatic. Of those who got pregnant, MOST got married. My older brother had a "shotgun" wedding in 1966, and is still married to the same woman. Teen pregnancy among Americans of black African ancestry was about the same as it was for the general population. Abortions were generally an option for only those with "means," while working-class people just got married (rather than having a bastard child). Girls being harmed in "back alley abortions" made headlines because it was so rare, yet now it is "common knowledge" that it happened all the time. Has no one reading this thread ever heard the expression, "Do the right thing"? Jesus.

The idea that teens are "gonna do it anyway" is contradicted by history, and has been shown to anyone with an ounce of observation powers as a self-fulfilling prophecy. If teens keep hearing that they are gonna do it anyway, well...what do you expect? Prior to the Pill, most teen girls were virgins when they got married, and most of those who weren't waited until they were in a serious, monogamous relationship before "giving it up."

Most of the remarks on this thread seem to be based on a belief that Human History started in about 1965.

[Sean]

Most of the remarks on this thread seem to be based on a belief that Human History started in about 1965.

As opposed to yours which seem to based on a belief that we stopped advancing as a race in 1965...

[rubato]

"...
Prior to the general availability of The Pill, the incidence of teen pregnancy was a tiny fraction of what it is now. High School girls were not fucking like rabbits. Pregnancy did occur, but it was a matter of one or two girls in a high school class of several hundred may have gotten pregnant. ... "

You just make shit up and then believe its true, don't you? Because the pill existed, but apparently they weren't taking it, they started having sex? That isn't even plausible bullshit.

Try finding out a few facts this time? How about all of the septic wards for failed back-room abortions?

Why is the rate of teen motherhood so much higher in conservative states than liberal ones? Almost 4 times as high!?



yrs,
rubato


Rank
(1=high | 51=low) Teen Birth Rate per 1,000
United States 39.1
1. Mississippi 64.2
2. New Mexico 63.9
3. Texas 60.7
4. Oklahoma 60.1
5. Arkansas 59.2
6. Louisiana 52.7
7. Kentucky 51.3
8. Alabama 50.7
9. Tennessee 50.6
9. Arizona 50.6
11. West Virginia 49.8
12. South Carolina 49.1
13. Georgia 47.7
13. District of Columbia 47.7
15. Nevada 47.4
16. Wyoming 45.0
17. North Carolina 44.9
18. Alaska 44.5
19. Kansas 43.8
20. Indiana 42.5
21. Missouri 41.6
22. Hawaii 40.9
23. Florida 39.0
24. Ohio 38.9
25. Montana 38.5
25. Colorado 38.5
27. South Dakota 38.4
28. California 36.6
29. Illinois 36.1
30. Idaho 35.9
31. Delaware 35.3
32. Nebraska 34.6
33. Oregon 33.1
34. Michigan 32.7
35. Iowa 32.1
36. Washington 31.9
37. Maryland 31.3
38. Virginia 31.0
39. Utah 30.7
40. Wisconsin 29.4
41. Pennsylvania 29.3
42. North Dakota 27.9
43. Rhode Island 26.8
44. New York 24.4
44. Maine 24.4
46. Minnesota 24.3
47. New Jersey 22.7
48. Connecticut 21.0
49. Massachusetts 19.6
50. Vermont 17.4
51. New Hampshire 16.4
Guam 50.8
Puerto Rico 54.7
Virgin Islands 51.5

[dgs49]

For the record, the teen birth rate in the U.S. peaked in about 1960, when there were about 85 births/1000 girls aged 15-19. In 1960, 85% of teenage girls having children were married. Those who are not complete idiots will recall that, for girls not going to college in the 50's and 60's it was quite common for them to marry within 2 years after graduating from HS, thus the apparently high birth rate is largely a phenomenon of married girls, 18 and 19 years old having their first child. It would not be surprising is some of the people on this Board were born when their mothers were teenagers, or have older siblings who were.

The current statistic is that there are about 50 teen births per 1000 females, and 80% of them are unmarried. Let's see...15% unmarried versus 80% unmarried.

If I didn't know better, I say that the increase in availability of artificial birth control and abortion correlates almost directly with the phenomenon (bastardy) that was supposed to be remedied by their availability.

But the "Plan B" bill won't be like that. It will surely reverse the trend. We will have no more unwanted, bastard children if only this new drug is made available to young teenagers.

[rubato]

Bullshit.

The ten pregnancy rate peaked in the 1950s before the pill was avail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy

"... The teenage birth rate in the United States is the highest in the developed world, and the teenage abortion rate is also high.[2] The U.S. teenage pregnancy rate was at a high in the 1950s and has decreased since then, although there has been an increase in births out of wedlock.[17] The teenage pregnancy rate decreased significantly in the 1990s; this decline manifested across all racial groups, although teenagers of African-American and Hispanic descent retain a higher rate, in comparison to that of European-Americans and Asian-Americans. The Guttmacher Institute attributed about 25% of the decline to abstinence and 75% to the effective use of contraceptives. ... "

Apparently pulling facts out of your ass is an inefficient and ineffective means of discovering the truth.

And the fact that the US has the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the developed world has more to do with the moronic conservatives who deprive young women of the knowledge and means to avoid pregnancy.

yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

The "teen" birth and/or pregnancy rates are not indicative of anything meaningful. A married 18/19 year old woman having a child is a good thing. A single teen having a baby out of wedlock is a budding disaster, statistically speakng. Grouping them together is idiocy. It's like counting the number of people who have their stomach sliced open, and not mentioning whether it is in the context of a street fight or thoracic surgery.

Which is why rubato insists on doing so.

Teen pregnancy rates are meaningless - illegitimacy rates are indicative of vital social trends. And they have been trending negative (increasing) for 50 years. At the same time as artificial birth control and abortion and have become more and more available.

Draw a logical fucking conclusion for once in your life, and take off the blinders.

[Scooter]

So all of those teenagers who have no longer been having babies for the past 20 years were married? Because otherwise the notion that "illegitimacy" has been increasing over that time is nonsense, given the dramatic drop in the teen birth rate.

[rubato]

"... A married 18/19 year old woman having a child is a good thing. ... "

An 18 or 19 year old woman having a child means in most cases that she will not be able to get an education and will remain poorer and weaker for it. No matter if she is married.

Delaying childbearing is a key element in moving people out of poverty and into the middle and upper-middle classes.

But some peole hate women and think of them as "breeding stock" like most southern conservatives. Ignorant reproduces itself faithfully.


yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

The "NOTION" that illegitimacy has been increasing for the past 50 years?

NOTION?

Rube's post speaks for itself. He is an idiot. It is not surprising that he cannot conceive of a 19-year-old being mature enough to be a mother. He is in his 40's and is not mature enough to be a father.

[Crackpot]

Rube didn't mention maturity he mentioned economic mobility.

While he is right in that aspect he misses the point that pursuing this path ends up robbing women of their prime child bearing years placing them in a position where they have to give it up all together or risk their health boosting their fertility. Truth is society has to work out a better path to integrate women and motherhood into the business world.

[BoSoxGal]

While he is right in that aspect he misses the point that pursuing this path ends up robbing women of their prime child bearing years placing them in a position where they have to give it up all together or risk their health boosting their fertility. Truth is society has to work out a better path to integrate women and motherhood into the business world.

Excellent point, CP.

I fall into that category, as do two of my closest friends - all of us have JDs and will most likely never be mothers. I believe all of us would have been very good mothers, given our values and especially our maturity. But, we can't afford the extended, expensive fertility treatments and/or surrogates that movie stars and other later mothers can, so we are shut out of motherhood.

I don't know how they feel, but I can say that I also feel that even IF I could have a child at 41, I would not want to have one only to put it into daycare at 12 weeks of age - but my student loan debt bars me from taking any extended period of time off from work, even if I were married and had another income upon which to rely for basic expenses.

The US needs to legislate extended, subsidized maternity leave - as do most civilized nations - if we are truly serious about family values and addressing the declining reproductive rate.

Yeah, I know, I'm

[rubato]

Rube didn't mention maturity he mentioned economic mobility.

While he is right in that aspect he misses the point that pursuing this path ends up robbing women of their prime child bearing years placing them in a position where they have to give it up all together or risk their health boosting their fertility. Truth is society has to work out a better path to integrate women and motherhood into the business world.

I have certainly not "Missed that point". A woman who delays childbearing until after an undergraduate degree (22yrs old) or even medical or professional school (26 years old) is still well within their prime childbearing years. But it is a fact that not every one can have everything that they want and some professions demand a level of commitment which makes having children unlikely.

I appreciate that there are people whose 'highest and best' life calling is motherhood. Most of those would be better mothers after a college degree and all of them cannot be respected as making an authentic choice unless the alternative was available. If women are deprived of the knowledge and means to control their fertility they are being treated like cattle.


yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

Then there's setting up a career paying of student debt etc etc. This at best puts them at or near the end of their peak fertility.

[BoSoxGal]

Right - it's not like you can pop out a baby the day after you pass the Bar exam, or medical boards. You have to get at least a bit established in your career.

It's not fair that men can be lawyers, doctors & fathers while women so often have to choose between one or the other.

Meanwhile the ignorant breed rampantly. I just attended our monthly child protective team meeting (wherein we discuss at risk families Child & Family Services is considering removing kids from) and was as usual sickened by stories of rampant breeders who are abusing and/or neglecting their kids.



eta: One of the biggest reasons I am seriously considering 'selling out' if I get the chance, is so after raking in big bucks for 4-5 years, I can not only have paid off my student loans, but will have enough $$ to adopt a child. I can't have one of my own anymore; I'm not infertile, but at my age the odds are great against getting pregnant naturally & my surgeries last year left me physically incapable of enduring a pregnancy without very high risk of serious health complications. Adoption is my only route to motherhood now, and being single, I'd have to adopt internationally, so very expensive.

[loCAtek]

Obviously, Men can be lawyers, doctors & fathers, because they have a domesticated female partner to deal with the family duties.

Be domesticated, or be independent... ~meh the globe is so overpopulated anywayZ

[dgs49]

Like it or not, the only way a woman can "have it all" is in the context of a sound marriage.

Being a "professional" and being a "mommy" are both, in effect, full-time jobs. There are times when a responsible job DEMANDS that you work late or weekends, or go out of town to conduct business. Conversely, there are times when a kid is too sick (or otherwise needy) to be ignored, and can't be left in daycare or even with a trusted relative.

The only way to work it out is to have two responsible parents, sharing the burdens to the extent that is possible.

While a competent professional who is also a loving parent can work wonders at keeping several balls in the air, that person would have to be extremely lucky to not allow some of them to crash to the ground when a career or parental crisis strikes - as they inevitably do. Which is why I'm not a big fan of the "Murphy Brown" scenario where a single professional woman decides to pop a kid because she wants to be maternally fulfilled, and feels cheated by the single, childless life. It is making a child suffer the price for the mother's selfishness, in my opinion. God forbid the child would be a "special needs" child - which sometimes is not predictable. There is no such thing as retroactive abortion.

So in conclusion, I guess it would be just peachy if a couple of "married" dykes decided to have a kid.

[Andrew D]

Come on, Andrew. The number of PP offices is indicative of the general availability of BC? You gotta be kidding.

Do you have a better one? Or should we conclude that birth control is widely available simply because you say so?