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Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 12:55 am
by Gob
Nightmare stories of nurses giving potent drugs meant for one patient to another and surgeons removing the wrong body parts have dominated recent headlines about medical care.
Lest you assume those cases are the exceptions, a new study by patient safety researchers provides some context.
Their analysis, published in the BMJ on Tuesday, shows that "medical errors" in hospitals and other health care facilities are incredibly common and may now be the third leading cause of death in the United States -- claiming 251,000 lives every year, more than respiratory disease, accidents, stroke and Alzheimer's.
Martin Makary, a professor of surgery at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine who led the research, said in an interview that the category includes everything from bad doctors to more systemic issues such as communication breakdowns when patients are handed off from one department to another.
"It boils down to people dying from the care that they receive rather than the disease for which they are seeing care," Makary said.
The issue of patient safety has been a hot topic in recent years, but it wasn't always that way. In 1999, an Institute of Medicine report calling preventable medical errors an "epidemic" shocked the medical establishment and led to significant debate about what could be done.
The IOM, based on one study, estimated deaths because of medical errors as high as 98,000 a year. Makary's research involves a more comprehensive analysis of four large studies, including ones by the Health and Human Services Department's Office of the Inspector General and the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality that took place between 2000 to 2008. His calculation of 251,000 deaths equates to nearly 700 deaths a day -- about 9.5 percent of all deaths annually in the United States.
Makary said he and co-author Michael Daniel, also from Johns Hopkins, conducted the analysis to shed more light on a problem that many hospitals and health care facilities try to avoid talking about.
Though all providers extol patient safety and highlight the various safety committees and protocols they have in place, few provide the public with specifics on actual cases of harm due to mistakes. Moreover, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention doesn't require reporting of errors in the data it collects about deaths through billing codes, making it hard to see what's going on at the national level.
The CDC should update its vital statistics reporting requirements so that physicians must report whether there was any error that led to a preventable death, Makary said.
"We all know how common it is," he said. "We also know how infrequently it’s openly discussed."
Kenneth Sands, who directs health care quality at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, an affiliate of Harvard Medical School, said that the surprising thing about medical errors is the limited change that has taken place since the IOM report came out. Only hospital-acquired infections have shown improvement. "The overall numbers haven't changed, and that's discouraging and alarming," he said.
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 1:31 am
by Scooter
I'm sorry, but when you classify stuff like hospital-acquired infections as "medical errors", then every other claim takes a credibility hit. Yes, people get infections in hospitals, yes, people have bad reactions to medications, yes, unexpected complications occur during surgeries, but that doesn't mean that all of them were mistakes of some kind or even that they were preventable. Some of them are, and whatever steps are necessary to prevent them should be undertaken. But lumping a disparate group of incidents into an amorphous blob and labelling it "medical error" doesn't help to fix anything.
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 3:20 am
by Long Run
Scooter wrote: But lumping a disparate group of incidents into an amorphous blob and labelling it "medical error" doesn't help to fix anything.
I thought you were describing deaths resulting from the Republican "presumptive" nominee's latest utterance, but I see we will need to create a whole new category for that.
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 4:14 pm
by rubato
People are in the hospital because they already suffer from heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, dementia, respiratory failure, severe trauma, & c so on the whole we are not talking about medical error killing otherwise healthy people expected to live a long time yet.
Guns do that.
Yrs,
Rubato
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 4:19 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Medical ERROR. 251,454?
OK, let's say each MEDICAL ERROR CASE was settled at $5million (a conservative estimate). Johns Hopkins apparently suggests that in one year, the medical industry paid out $1,257,270,000,000 in damage claims?
Isn't that rather more than the annual amount spent on medical care?
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 4:44 pm
by rubato
MajGenl.Meade wrote:Medical ERROR. 251,454?
OK, let's say each MEDICAL ERROR CASE was settled at $5million (a conservative estimate). Johns Hopkins apparently suggests that in one year, the medical industry paid out $1,257,270,000,000 in damage claims?
Isn't that rather more than the annual amount spent on medical care?
Per 1 source it is $2.88T per year. So no. The second source said 17% of GDP which is $2.85T.
Yrs,
Rubato
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 5:58 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Thanks for the correction. So, not far off half then? $5million per case was too high as well.
EXHIBIT 1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T1/
Estimates Of National Costs Of The Medical Liability System
Component Estimated cost (billions of 2008 dollars) Quality of evidence supporting cost estimate
Indemnity payments $5.72 Good as to the total; moderate as to the precision of the split among the components
Economic damages $3.15
Noneconomic damages $2.40
Punitive damages $0.17
5.72 billion is a good (hugely so) deal less than my finger in the wind number, even if it is as of 8 years ago! However, my hesitation remains slightly vibratory; does in excess of 250,000 deaths per year due to medical error
really only translate to less than $6 billion in judgements?
That's less than $24,000 dollars per, and that doesn't even take into account the number of medically caused injury cases (short of death) that lead to compensation which are also included in that 5.72 billion.
In 2013, PBS reported on a study that estimated anything from 200,000 up to 440,000 medically preventable deaths per year - the third leading cause of death, even then. So either doctors are doing a terrible job or lawyers are doing a terrible job - the only benefit seems to be to insurance companies which collect about 55 billion a year.....
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:10 pm
by Sue U
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
5.72 billion is a good (hugely so) deal less than my finger in the wind number, even if it is as of 8 years ago! However, my hesitation remains slightly vibratory; does in excess of 250,000 deaths per year due to medical error really only translate to less than $6 billion in judgements?
That's less than $24,000 dollars per, and that doesn't even take into account the number of medically caused injury cases (short of death) that lead to compensation which are also included in that 5.72 billion.
In 2013, PBS reported on a study that estimated anything from 200,000 up to 440,000 medically preventable deaths per year - the third leading cause of death, even then. So either doctors are doing a terrible job or lawyers are doing a terrible job - the only benefit seems to be to insurance companies which collect about 55 billion a year.....
Your ideas about what a medical negligence case is worth and how many of them actually result in any compensation at all are wildly exaggerated. In the first instance, a majority of states have statutory caps on med mal damages that typically prevent a claimant from obtaining more than $250,000 or $500,000 in non-economic damages. Furthermore, doctors' liability policies around here, where we have no statutory limit, are typically no more than $1 million per occurrence, so as a practical matter payouts are capped at the available coverage. Moreover, med mal cases are extremely difficult to prove legally and extremely expensive to prosecute because they are very expert-intensive, and they generally come down to a battle of the experts concerning arcane issues of the "standard of care" and "medical judgment." And where there are several doctors and an institutional system involved, it can be very difficult to pin down exactly where the deviation occurred and who is responsible. As a result, many cases are turned down by attorneys unless the provable damages are very large and liability is pretty clear. And of the cases that end up going to trial and verdict, there is a very high rate of defense verdicts (well over 80%), since jurors see doctors as heroes and don't want to "punish" them for "just making a mistake."
In particular, and most pertinent to this discussion, no one likes a death case because they generally have little compensable value unless the malpractice caused a very lengthy period of pain, suffering and/or disability before ultimate expiration. Death claims are only worth the economic loss occasioned by the death. So if you have someone who is out of the workforce (e.g., a retiree) killed by his doc, there is simply no wage loss component. And if he is killed relatively quickly, the pain & suffering damages are likewise extremely limited.
In my office and among my colleagues are some of the best med mal lawyers in the country. It is a red-letter day when they get a verdict or settlement in excess of $1 million. I can give you an example of a case that came in recently, where the docs committed malpractice during a catheterization, which resulted in a generalized sepsis that would have required amputation of all the patients' limbs. Instead of consigning the now-unconscious patient to such a life, which everyone agreed she would not want, the family declined treatment and allowed her to die of organ failure instead. But because she had been chronically ill to begin with, and because this whole horrible episode took place over less than 48 hours, with little to no conscious pain and suffering, the case was deemed to be worth substantially less than $100,000 in damages and therefore not worth the costs to litigate.
So if you think every med mal case is somehow automatically "worth millions" and that plaintiffs routinely "hit the jackpot," you are very, very, very wrong.
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:05 pm
by MGMcAnick
Sue U wrote:In the first instance, a majority of states have statutory caps on med mal damages that typically prevent a claimant from obtaining more than $250,000 or $500,000 in non-economic damages. Furthermore, doctors' liability policies around here, where we have no statutory limit, are typically no more than $1 million per occurrence, so as a practical matter payouts are capped at the available coverage.
So if you think every med mal case is somehow automatically "worth millions" and that plaintiffs routinely "hit the jackpot," you are very, very, very wrong.
So my heirs can't collect on what my doctor-at-fault will make over the next several years if he causes my death? It's his insurance only? What about his assets?
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:08 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Sue U wrote:Your ideas about what a medical negligence case is worth and how many of them actually result in any compensation at all are wildly exaggerated...So if you think every med mal case is somehow automatically "worth millions" and that plaintiffs routinely "hit the jackpot," you are very, very, very wrong.
Er no... perhaps you misunderstood my follow-up (although you quoted it) which corrected my first wildly wrong one:
5.72 billion is a good (hugely so) deal less than my finger in the wind number
I asked if that meant average of 24K awards and I guess you answered that - thank you.
It does seem to me that if there are 251000 deaths (in addition to injuries) there should be more than $5.72 billion paid out. That's why I suggested the only people really making out are insurance companies who (figures from reliable sources) collect in excess of 55 billion every year in malpractice insurance premiums. Doctors ain't doing well at keeping folks alive (apparently) and lawyers ain't doing so well at getting compensation awards - for whatever reason.

Re: Who cares?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 1:22 am
by Burning Petard
The term is iatrogenic disease. Not a medical error to catch an infection? If it is not, then it is a management choice. Infections come from improper cleaning, not following standard protocols--typically because they take too much time/materials and thus cost too much.
Remember, very few hospitals are run by charities now. They have to be run in a proper, business-like manner.
And every death caused by medical error does NOT result in a big payout to the surviving family. There are lots of medical management studies that advocate 'good customer relations' will avoid the payments. Be nice, sympathetic, talk about how it is in God's hands, it is medical art, not science, we did all that we could. . .
snailgate
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:31 am
by rubato
" nearly all men die of their remedies and not their illnesses." Moliere
Yrs
Rubato
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 4:38 pm
by Sue U
MajGenl.Meade wrote:Er no... perhaps you misunderstood my follow-up (although you quoted it) which corrected my first wildly wrong one:
No, I was referring to both your first wildly wrong idea that med mal cases average $5 million in recovery and your equally wrong presumptions that most (or even many) medical negligence cases actually result in compensatory payments and that death cases are worth more than survival cases. Also, I didn't necessarily mean you specifically, although your post prompted my response. Many people have these (or similarly mistaken) ideas about personal injury litigation.
MajGenl.Meade wrote:It does seem to me that if there are 251000 deaths (in addition to injuries) there should be more than $5.72 billion paid out. That's why I suggested the only people really making out are insurance companies who (figures from reliable sources) collect in excess of 55 billion every year in malpractice insurance premiums. Doctors ain't doing well at keeping folks alive (apparently) and lawyers ain't doing so well at getting compensation awards - for whatever reason.

Well, you won't get an argument from me on that score, but the fact is that med mal cases as a rule are very difficult and very expensive to litigate, and the liability insurers have been very successful in manufacturing a "med mal crisis" to both secure special protective legislation and distort public perception of medical negligence litigation.
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 1:48 am
by BoSoxGal
Scooter wrote:I'm sorry, but when you classify stuff like hospital-acquired infections as "medical errors", then every other claim takes a credibility hit. Yes, people get infections in hospitals, yes, people have bad reactions to medications, yes, unexpected complications occur during surgeries, but that doesn't mean that all of them were mistakes of some kind or even that they were preventable. Some of them are, and whatever steps are necessary to prevent them should be undertaken. But lumping a disparate group of incidents into an amorphous blob and labelling it "medical error" doesn't help to fix anything.
I heard an academic physician from Johns Hopkins discuss this and what he basically said was nobody's tracking it now so those distinctions aren't being made and in the very many cases where it IS preventable death the lessons learned are not being shared industry-wide in order to prevent them elsewhere. The research dollars aren't being allocated to improve the situation in medical practices because it's not being tracked and closely followed by both the medical industry itself and by independent oversight agencies.
I was shocked to hear it myself, even though I am more aware than most of how deadly hospitals can be. I'm feeling immensely grateful to have survived 3 surgical procedures with only post-op issues due to (likely) poor surgical technique that were generally fixable.
Re: Who cares?
Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:32 am
by Lord Jim
Scooter wrote:I'm sorry, but when you classify stuff like hospital-acquired infections as "medical errors", then every other claim takes a credibility hit. Yes, people get infections in hospitals, yes, people have bad reactions to medications, yes, unexpected complications occur during surgeries, but that doesn't mean that all of them were mistakes of some kind or even that they were preventable. Some of them are, and whatever steps are necessary to prevent them should be undertaken. But lumping a disparate group of incidents into an amorphous blob and labelling it "medical error" doesn't help to fix anything.
Some excellent points there...
Studies that engage in "lumping a disparate group of incidents into an amorphous blob" are a particular bitch of mine. You frequently see this in studies on "gun violence"...
rubato wrote:People are in the hospital because they already suffer from heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, dementia, respiratory failure, severe trauma, & c so on the whole we are not talking about medical error killing otherwise healthy people expected to live a long time yet.
Guns do that.
Yrs,
Rubato
Geezus, and this guy is married to a doctor...
Uhh rube, this may come as news to you, but
many people go to hospitals for procedures who are fully expected to live for quite a long time. Somebody in their twenties who has an emergency appendectomy, or a child having their tonsils removed isn't expected to keel over in a few weeks...People get stabbed or shot, or fall off a ladder, or are injured in a car accident, and go on to live for
decades...
Apparently these are facts you were unaware of...
And even for those who
may have limited time left, are you seriously suggesting that if their lives are shortened due to genuine medical error that the reaction should be, "oh well, ain't no big thang, the loser was going to croak soon anyway..."?
Gee, this must be an example of that famous liberal compassion I keep hearing so much about...
Seems to me rube that if we ever
do set up "death panels" you have just the right attitude to serve on one...