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That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:23 am
by Gob
More than 40 years after the end of the Vietnam war, dozens of ageing former American soldiers have gone back to the country to live.
Some had difficulty adapting to civilian life in the US. Others have gone back in the hope of atoning for wrongs they believe were committed during the war.
At the foot of one of Da Nang's Marble Mountains women with rice hats walk around selling souvenirs. A lift takes tourists to the top, where on one side they look out over the countryside of central Vietnam, on the other the South China Sea.
In 1968 David Edward Clark was camped behind these mountains, but then it was impossible to climb them, the 66-year-old says. Anyone doing so would be a sitting duck for the Vietcong camped nearby.
"We even had the rule that you would never leave the camp without a gun," says Clark. "So I walked around with an M16 all day. And I put that thing in the face of every Vietnamese I encountered. Men, women and children. I wanted them to be scared of me. That would give me a bigger chance to survive."
continues here...
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:56 am
by Bicycle Bill
When you consider the money these people are receiving from Social Security payments, possible pensions from civilian employment, military benefits, and anything else they might have accumulated during their lives following their deployment back in the 1960s, you realize that the income these American ex-pats receive probably put them in the top 5% income bracket? I could live very comfortably under those circumstances too.
-"BB"-
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:05 am
by Guinevere
Do you have any facts to back up that statement, or did you just pull it out of your backside?
CNN reports that to be in the top 5% of American earners in 2014 you have to make at least $205,000.
Max social security payment in 2016 is approx $2,900 monthly (I'm rounding my numbers).
To receive a military pension, a minimum of 20 years of service is required for those joining before 1980. Assume these drafted recruits stay 20 years and retire at the rank of Master Sergeant. Max salary for that position in 2015 was around $65,000 (I'm being generous too), so the pension payment is 50% of highest annual salary or about $2300 monthly.
Total of the two is $5200 per month, annualized to $62,400.
Oh and the above numbers would require someone to have joined at age 20 in 1970, retired from the Army after 20 years at age 40 in 1990, and then worked 25 years in the private sector until age 65, and retired in 2015. Pension reform was well underway by 1990, many companies had moved to 401K programs by then for new hires.
Assume they still managed to save $1MM in a 401K in those 25 years (including employer contributions and/or matches), that gives a 65 year old man who purchases an annuity payments of another $5600/month.
Using my very generous assumptions (because Americans just don't save, as a rule) total payments end up around $10,800/month, annualized to $129,000. Not chump change but still quite a ways from the top 5% (closer to top 15%).
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:39 am
by Econoline
...and that's combining THREE best-case-scenarios (veteran's pension, maximum SS, and a well-funded 401K). I doubt whether 1 in 100 Vietnam vets falls into that category.
Maybe Bill meant the Vietnamese top 5% ?
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:53 am
by Bicycle Bill
Econoline wrote:...and that's combining THREE best-case-scenarios (veteran's pension, maximum SS, and a well-funded 401K). I doubt whether 1 in 100 Vietnam vets falls into that category.
Maybe Bill meant the Vietnamese top 5% ?
Precisely, E-line — and I was also considering any other income/financial assets they might have from selling property in the states or even collecting on a deceased spouse's life insurance before going ex-pat. I have no idea what the actual income breakdown there is, but if they're accurate
(and I have no reason to assume that they are not) I'm sure Guin's numbers would be considered quite good in Vietnam.
-"BB"-
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 11:27 am
by Guinevere
It took me less time to research my facts then to write my actual post. That's the point. This thing called the internet has lots and lots and lots and lots of information available. Some of it even accurate.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 11:42 am
by MajGenl.Meade
Wage and salary in Vietnam are very dissimilar across occupations and contrast starkly between urban and rural areas. The average wage per person in Vietnam is around 3.2 million VND ($150) a month and differentiated by many factors.
Like many other economies in the world, the type of jobs firstly divides the salary level in Vietnam. The top professions that pay the highest salary are Mineral and Metallurgy (9.2million VND/month i.e. $450), Banking (7.6million VND/month) and Pharmacy (7million VND/month) while some other jobs like Textile or Food Industry workers only pay their labors with the wage from 2.1 to 2.3 million VND a month.
There is also a significant gap in salary between different positions in work; for example, the salary for the secretaries is often between 2 million to 2.5 million VND, while the wage for a CEO varies between 17 million and 20 million VND.
http://www.vietnamonline.com/az/average-salary.html
It should be obvious to anyone after a moment's thought that BB was not talking about the top 5% in the USA because what would be the point of that? The subject is US citizens living in
Vietnam, not in the USA.
I'd say that at even half of Guin's generous estimate ($5K per month or even less), a USian
living in Vietnam is very likely indeed to be among the top 5% in income per year in
Vietnam. So whether BB pulled it out of his keister or not, he apparently got it right.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:20 pm
by TPFKA@W
MajGenl.Meade wrote: Wage and salary in Vietnam are very dissimilar across occupations and contrast starkly between urban and rural areas. The average wage per person in Vietnam is around 3.2 million VND ($150) a month and differentiated by many factors.
Like many other economies in the world, the type of jobs firstly divides the salary level in Vietnam. The top professions that pay the highest salary are Mineral and Metallurgy (9.2million VND/month i.e. $450), Banking (7.6million VND/month) and Pharmacy (7million VND/month) while some other jobs like Textile or Food Industry workers only pay their labors with the wage from 2.1 to 2.3 million VND a month.
There is also a significant gap in salary between different positions in work; for example, the salary for the secretaries is often between 2 million to 2.5 million VND, while the wage for a CEO varies between 17 million and 20 million VND.
http://www.vietnamonline.com/az/average-salary.html
It should be obvious to anyone after a moment's thought that BB was not talking about the top 5% in the USA because what would be the point of that? The subject is US citizens living in
Vietnam, not in the USA.
I'd say that at even half of Guin's generous estimate ($5K per month or even less), a USian
living in Vietnam is very likely indeed to be among the top 5% in income per year in
Vietnam. So whether BB pulled it out of his keister or not, he apparently got it right.
Yeah, this is why people go expat to Mexico, and other places, you can live better there on your pensions than you can here.
I was told, by an Indian co-worker that the goal of many Indians is to live and work in the States for 10 years so they can get a social security check to help them live well when they return to India.
I expect these vets do live well in Nam.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:47 pm
by rubato
Bicycle Bill wrote:When you consider the money these people are receiving from Social Security payments, possible pensions from civilian employment, military benefits, and anything else they might have accumulated during their lives following their deployment back in the 1960s, you realize that the income these American ex-pats receive probably put them in the top 5% income bracket? I could live very comfortably under those circumstances too.
-"BB"-
Well, there's the weather to consider. A little tropical and sweaty for my taste. And the bugs; both insects and microbial. Sometimes together (bird flu, malaria). Parasites, don't forget parasites. Ick.
On the other hand I've been very impressed by my Vietnamese colleagues. Really amazing people*. I think I would enjoy the social aspects of living there.
yrs,
rubato
*My wife loves her Vietnamese patients as well. Tough, uncomplaining, hardworking, good-humored, courageous, express themselves from the heart.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:26 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
... and they have a natural sense of rhythm.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:34 pm
by Lord Jim
A lot of ex-military also retire to the Philippines for the same reason...
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:40 pm
by Joe Guy
MajGenl.Meade wrote:... and they have a natural sense of rhythm.
...and I hate to admit it, but the Vietnamese can tap dance better than us white folks.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:39 pm
by Big RR
It's generally not easy to retire to a place which is different from the one where you lived most of your life. I recall a colleague who had planned to retire to Spain (it was a bargain at that time) and gave it a 6 month trial; when he came back he said he couldn't stand it--many of the things we take for granted were not available there (or very expensive) and he decided to stay here, even though his money wouldn't go as far.
I imagine in countries like Vietnam and the Philippines (probably mexico too), there would also be a concern with the availability and cost of quality medical care. It could be a very good life for the right person, but a hell for the wrong one.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:35 pm
by rubato
MajGenl.Meade wrote:... and they have a natural sense of rhythm.
Your compulsion to malice has run ahead of your reason.
I have expressed my personal experiences with Vietnamese people along with those of my wife. This cannot be a racial stereotype like "black people have a natural sense of rhythm" since it is merely my experience which I have expressed honestly. I have also had uniformly positive experiences with people in France; the language is beautiful, the people are charming and gracious, the cuisine is fantastic.
But thank you for playng; "how hate makes you stupid". Fun that JG recruited himself into your confused malice.
yrs,
rubato
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:46 pm
by Lord Jim
Uhh, I believe that Meade's point, (which I'm sure was obvious to anyone who doesn't coat themselves daily with Industrial Strength Point Repellent ) is that it's always facile and simplistic to ascribe a set of characteristics to a whole people, (ethnic group, national group, religious group, etc.) even if they sound like "positive" characteristics...
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:56 pm
by Scooter
Except that's what he expressly didn't do in this case ("impressed by my Vietnamese colleagues"..."My wife loves her Vietnamese patients" - the comments are being restricted to those of whom he and his wife have personal knowledge, not to the entire race.
Once again, a desire to put down rubato at any cost has those doing so looking the fool by being unable to read.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:05 pm
by rubato
thank you.
yrs,
rubato
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:19 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
I prefer not to ascribe blanket qualities to people based upon the dual qualifiers of (1) my knowing them and (2) their race.
I see no meaningful difference whatsoever between one person's "personal experience" and another person's "personal experience" - let us say, between rubato in this case and a southern slave-holder.
The latter, by personal experience, knew that blacks could sing and dance. Either way, it's condescending.
This is not to equate rubato with the same motivations as a southern slave-holder. rubato has no such idea in mind as demeaning people of another race or ethnic origin. He inadvertently repeats the pattern of those who do.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:37 pm
by Joe Guy
Scooter wrote:.....the comments are being restricted to those of whom he and his wife have personal knowledge, not to the entire race.
Commending people by category, whether it be an entire race or a small group of people of one race, is not complimentary. It reeks of elitism and snobbery.
Re: That smell of napalm
Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:39 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
