New puritanism

[Gob]

There have been brothels in Nevada since the days of the Gold Rush, but in one of the state's 16 counties that could be about to change.

Voters in Lyon County have a chance to put an end to legal prostitution in November, in a ballot coinciding with the country's mid-term elections. Lucy Ash met a veteran Nevada sex worker and heard the arguments for and against.

Air Force Amy totters around the kidney-shaped swimming pool in her high heels to show me the gym where women can work out between clients. She points out the barbecue patio and the Jacuzzi before flinging open a garage door to reveal some dusty quad bikes.

"We've got everything we need right here, even ponies in the stable out the back," she says. "I don't ride them because it's too risky - I need my body to work," she adds with a throaty laugh.

We escape the blinding desert sun for the dimly lit parlour where a pink neon Bunny Ranch sign flickers over the bar. A few girls in lingerie or skimpy dresses are sitting on the crushed velvet sofas hunched over laptops and phones.


Continues... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45486174

Making sex work illegal does nothing but push the problem underground.

[Long Run]

It's been all downhill for Nevada since corporations bought the mob out of the casino business.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Yes - many pros and cons in this argument.

[rubato]

Yes - many pros and cons in this argument.

I agree.

One the one hand sex workers say they want their profession to be legalized so they can have the protections of the law from exploitation by pimps, violence from customers, protection from disease. They say they are hurting no one and do not find their line of work degrading or shameful.

On the other hand some women believe that sex work is per se exploitation and degrading.

I think it comes down to whether you think prostitution is shameful and degrading of the human spirit. If you do you are inclined to believe that it cannot be a choice that we have to respect as being made by a reasonable person in possession of their faculties thus we are justified in not allowing it.

I have not been able to come to a fixed conclusion on this.

(there are only two counties which allow prostitution and Las Vegas is not in either of them).

yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Making sex work illegal does nothing but push the problem underground.

Same thing happened with kidnap and ransom

[Big RR]

Because the crimes are equivalent Meade?

[Lord Jim]

some women believe that sex work is per se exploitation and degrading.

Well, working in the Trump administration is per se exploitation and degrading, but that hasn't been made illegal...

But seriously folks...

As a general rule I don't believe a third party's ideological or philosophical "standards" of what constitutes "exploitation and degrading" should be dispositive in deciding whether or not that line of work should be legal for somebody else if they choose to pursue it as a way to earn their income...

If you find it exploiting and degrading, please feel free not to engage in it...

That having been said, in the case of prostitution, there are of course many who engage in it for whom doing so is not a choice, and those people deserve help and protection...(And those who have made the choice for themselves to engage in to earn a living do as well.)

I have long felt that the best way to address this is to legalize and regulate prostitution. Just like our approach to drugs, it is clear that what we're doing now ain't workin'...

I am NOT however in favor of "decriminalizing" prostitution, because I believe that will just make all of the problems associated with prostitution worse, while doing nothing for those directly engaging in it.

All decriminalization does is make it easier and less expensive for the pimps; (and any organized crime groups that in some cases are involved)

I don't want to make life easier for pimps; I want to put them out of business. Legalization and regulation would help protect both those who choose to provide the services and those who choose to avail themselves of the services. (And it would also help to protect those who want no part of it, since it would be regulated in such a way that it wouldn't be taking place on every street corner.)

The money now going to the pimps would be used to increase the pay going to the workers, as well as providing services like security, healthcare, daycare for their kids and assistance to those who would choose to transition out of prostitution (education and work training program assistance, etc)

Given the huge cut of the revenue currently going to the pimps and organized crime, all of this could be paid for without one net dime of increased cost to taxpayers. In fact when you also take out all the costs involved with the current approach, (criminal justice costs, hospital costs, social services costs, and all the other costs associated with the income being provided to criminal elements) this approach would result in a net plus for public coffers.

(Which ought to make it appealing to fiscal conservatives...)

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this is one of those ideas that just makes way to much sense to ever happen...

[Big RR]

Jim--I agree; I think we could do something like Amsterdam and have red light districts with places where the oldest profession is regulated and practiced openly.

As for decriminalization, I understand your concern about organized crime and the pimps, but while I wouldn't object to a woman (or man for that matter) choosing to freelance without a license (and outside of the regulatory framework), I would not like to see it being carried as a significant crime.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Making sex work illegal does nothing but push the problem underground.

Same thing happened with kidnap and ransom

I see what you did there, Meade.

[Big RR]

Now I do as well.

[Bicycle Bill]

Jim--I agree; I think we could do something like Amsterdam and have red light districts with places where the oldest profession is regulated and practiced openly.

Likewise. We have already reversed the restrictions and removed the stigma from casino gaming and marijuana usage in many areas of the US; why haven't more states embraced the concept of legal, licensed, inspected, and medically-certified boîtes de plaisirs?  Hell, Snotty Wanker (the Republican governor of Wisconsin, my home state) could set up some of these at each and every Tourist Welcome Area or every community with a major highway or bridge from out-of-state and tap into some incredibly large sources of income that would swell the state's coffers.

As for decriminalization, I understand your concern about organized crime and the pimps, but while I wouldn't object to a woman (or man for that matter) choosing to freelance without a license (and outside of the regulatory framework), I would not like to see it being carried as a significant crime.

Have you never checked out the 'personals' section of Craigslist or a site like backpage.com?

-"BB"-

[Big RR]

Have you never checked out the 'personals' section of Craigslist or a site like backpage.com?

No, but mainly because I am not interested in what they are apparently selling. Do they quote prices?

[RayThom]

"We have established what you are, madam. We are now merely haggling over the price."

[rubato]

We, other than libertarians, do not allow people to sell themselves into chattel slavery (quite) even if someone is willing to sell themselves, because it is considered degrading to humanity to do so. Too a great degree prostitution is regarded as a condition people are forced into by a lack of other choices, the 'hooker with a heart of gold' meme not withstanding. Around the world a great deal of, perhaps most, prostitution is carried out as sex slavery. I don't have a fixed opinion about it because both sides have some merit but if a large percentage, perhaps most, are forced into it it is harder to see it as a rational choice.

Nozick, the principal philosopher of Libertarianism, said explicitly that his philosophy would allow people to sell themselves into slavery as well as selling organs for money &c.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

No, it's not the selling of oneself that is prohibited, just that the law and courts will not honor the contract made and give it the force of law. Indeed, I'd bet there are many who do more or less just that, and it is not illegal; one need only to look at some marriages to see that.

[BoSoxGal]

I’d say a lot more than some marriages; I’d say most in human history - especially since marrying for love is a very recent development.

[datsunaholic]

I’d say a lot more than some marriages; I’d say most in human history - especially since marrying for love is a very recent development.

I was going to question that but realized, yeah, you're right. The whole concept of a dowry - that a woman was only worth what her father was willing to pay to get rid of her. Women were property. Some met were more interested in what they'd get WITH that marriage than the marriage itself. Worse, many men still think that, even of they won't outright say it. And still try to control women's bodies, as if they can't make their own choices.

What I don't understand is why even I struggle with that concept. I have to constantly question what I do and think because there's some deep-seated, I guess I have to say, misogyny, that I grapple with. Not the right word. It's those inner thoughts I have to think differently of.

It's like this thought: is there such thing as a well-adjusted sex worker? From the outside looking in, it seems that most women in porn or in prostitution had really bad childhoods full of abuse, rape, drugs, parental abandonment. Stormy Daniel's latest book describes it. Jenna Jameson's biography, as well. Drug use is rampant. Worse, women who enter the "industry" are essentially blacklisted from ever finding employment elsewhere. It takes one guy to recognize them and they're fired for being a distraction, for not adhering to the "standards" of that employer. Keep 'em down, seems to be the reality. And that's wrong.

And porn is legal. But it's still mostly run by men who are pieces of crap, abusive control freaks. The difference is a camera, a "file cabinet" of 2257 forms properly separated from other records, and that the content is produced for sale. Prostitution, aside from a few extremely rural Nevada counties, is not. Bible thumpers would like to see that all shut down, but is their reason to "help those poor women caught in the nest of sin" or is it just another way for them to assert control over people they don't agree with?

[Jarlaxle]

Enlightening read: Cop To Call Girl by Norma Jean Almodovar.

[rubato]

It depends on the culture.

Some (like India) have a dowry system where the women's family has to pay to attract a husband for her and some are opposite and have a "bride price" where the prospective husbands family have to pay for the right to marry a woman. I don't think I have seen a systematic explanation for the differences.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Datsun--this is anectdotal, through a friend who used to frequent the strip clubs, I got to know a couple of strippers I thought were pretty well adjusted. I know little of their backgrounds, but joined my friend for a couple of iate night diner suppers with each. The first was in her late 30s and, if you met her, you'd never know she was a dancer. But when she spoke, you could see she took a certain satisfaction is sticking it to some of the men--while she didn't say it outright (and I didn't ask), I do think there were one or two wealthy men with whom she carried on affairs and was taking them for all they had. She seemed happy and had a lot of money, even drove a Mercedes two seater. I heard she retired a few years later, moved, and is now a realtor in another state (I confirmed this by a search a couple of years ago).

The second was a younger girl (around 22) who worked on one of the more sleazy clubs (fully nude, nude lap dances with touching permitted, even handjobs in the private rooms). She said she was a student (I didn't check, but she said she was a chemistry major and seemed to know her science) and came in one weekend a month from Florida. She didn't seem to mind this split life, and said it was the best way for her to fund her education. My friend told me after a couple of years she said she was graduating and continuing her education, and he never heard from her again. She, too, appeared to be happy, or at least as happy as a student working a job they really didn't care for could be (i.e. no worse than if she worked for McDonalds).

Both of them liked my friend because he was pretty nonthreatening and, while I don't know the details of either relationship, I can tell you he didn't have a lot of money and they didn't appear to take him for anything. Mu guess is that sex workers can be happy and well adjusted when they feel in control. For some people, sex with strangers is no big deal, and if they are comfortable with that, they can be well adjusted. Indeed, the way they described and put down their customers is pretty much the same as we did with restaurant patrons when I worked in one.

I would think if the sex trade were made safe for the providers, there might well be a lot of persons who would be happy working in it and would remain well adjusted.

On the other hand, I wonder if there could ever be a well adjusted pimp.