Sweden does things differently..

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Gob
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Sweden does things differently..

Post by Gob »

Swedes really don't like to stand out. They much prefer to blend in. They even have their own word for it: 'Jantelagen', the Scandinavian answer to Australia and New Zealand's 'tall poppy syndrome'.

It roughly translates as: 'Don't think you're better than anyone else.'

And so it's quite understandable that its government's maverick response to the coronavirus crisis is making many in the country feel uneasy.

After all, Sweden is the last major European country to have most of its schools, bars and restaurants still open.

Yes, the government has asked people to work from home if possible, and those over 70 have been instructed to stay indoors, while visits to elderly care homes have been banned.

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People walk along the main pedestrian shopping street in Stockholm last Wednesday, as the Swedish government takes a lighter touch than most of its counterparts


But there have been no official lockdown directives – even though there have been more than 4,000 cases of infection and 180 deaths.

The only steps the Social Democratic-led coalition has taken is to close universities and higher education colleges, as well as to order restaurants and bars to serve people only at tables rather than at the crammed bar.

There's also a ban on public gatherings. But with the limit set at 50 people, it's significantly more generous than other European countries, such as the UK, where the maximum is two.

Indeed, Swedish children under the age of 16, including my six-year-old twins, are still going to school, while bars and restaurants are still relatively busy.

On paper, Sweden appears to be surviving this virus. For example, it reported its first coronavirus-related death on March 11 – by which point there had been eight fatalities in the UK and 800 in Italy.

And according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, there have been only 14 coronavirus-related deaths per million people in Sweden, far fewer than in Italy (192), Spain (157) and the UK (21).

But relying on these statistics can be misleading. For while Sweden's death rate may appear strikingly low, that could be because it has succeeded only in delaying – rather than preventing – a fatal outbreak.

Indeed, Sweden's current rate of infection is already relatively high. If you look at the number of reported cases per 100,000 of the Swedish population (39.6), it's greater than the UK's (33.8). And so the Swedish government's strategy doesn't sit well with many citizens.

After all, its neighbours Denmark, Finland, and Norway – all of which have fewer fatalities – introduced stringent lockdown measures, such as closing workplaces and schools, weeks ago.

Just last week, more than 2,000 Swedish university researchers published a joint letter questioning the government's response.

Professor Cecilia Soderberg-Naucler, a virus immunology researcher, said: 'We're not testing enough, we're not tracking, we're not isolating enough – we have let the virus loose.

'They are leading us to catastrophe.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... rophe.html
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Lord Jim
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Lord Jim »

Sweden acting like Mississippi...

Who'd a thunk it... :roll:
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Given their pragmatic approach to health care for the elderly, I'm surprised there are many over 70 to worry about. Perhaps no longer.....
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Big RR »

A couple of things I have noticed in Scandinavia (and even ij my own upbringing), social distancing is a given. I have never been to a packed bar or restaurant in Stockholm (or Oslo or Copenhagen for that matter) and people are always aware of their personal distances between them (I have never seen crowed trains or buses like I see on the subways in NYC, people just wait for the next one, or more likely ride their bikes). Add to it that the elderly often live in retirement communities or nursing homes away from the major metropolitan areas (and contact is maintained by phone and mail or email and skype) and there is a sort of isolation imposed which we do not see in other countries.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by BoSoxGal »

I hope this works out for them - maybe they do exhibit a higher level of common sense than most other cultures.

I will say that when I lived in Montana, and travelled through the Dakotas and upper Midwest states where there is a lot of Scandinavian influence, I did notice that farms and yards were a lot tidier when they had Scandinavian names attached to them. Cleanliness is very much next to godliness in that culture, and whether the individual folks are particularly religious or not it spills over.

I do think it’s a terribly risky gamble.
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Crackpot
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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What you guys missed is even though they are better at social distancing as a whole that alone is not working and their lack of taking the extraordinary efforts everyone else has is now beginning to cost them

Look at the most recent infections and deaths
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Econoline
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Econoline »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Given their pragmatic approach to health care for the elderly, I'm surprised there are many over 70 to worry about.
Life expectancy at birth in years, 2017
  • Japan — 84.2
  • Switzerland — 83.6
  • Australia — 82.6
  • France — 82.6
  • Sweden — 82.5
  • Comparable Country Average — 82.3
  • Canada — 82.0
  • Netherlands — 81.8
  • Austria — 81.7
  • Belgium — 81.6
  • United Kingdom — 81.3
  • Germany — 81.1
  • United States — 78.6
(source)
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BoSoxGal
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Given their pragmatic approach to health care for the elderly, I'm surprised there are many over 70 to worry about. Perhaps no longer.....
What does that even mean? Or are you confusing Sweden with Switzerland, home of Dignitas?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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rubato
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by rubato »

As someone who is mostly Danish; well what do you expect? They're Swedes!

yrs,
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Big RR
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Big RR »

I know, and as my Norwegian grandfather always said--"They collaborated with the Nazis". The funny thing is that the Danes, Norwegians, and Swedes make the same charges of stupidity and collaboration against each other--kind of like the worst drivers in the country come from the state right next to you.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:19 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Given their pragmatic approach to health care for the elderly, I'm surprised there are many over 70 to worry about. Perhaps no longer.....
What does that even mean? Or are you confusing Sweden with Switzerland, home of Dignitas?
No, it was a memory of some years ago - how Sweden discouraged expensive medical interventions for the elderly, such as transplants, because the old buffers are due to cork off soon anyway. Rather have younger people get the benefit. Discuss.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Crackpot
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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They do that here too. All else being equal the younger will always get the transplant.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Big RR
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Big RR »

Unless they have a lot of money, or are a middle eastern prince and make a big "donation" to the hospital. However, as someone rapidly approaching my dotage, I think it makes a lot more sense to use such medical procedures for youger people rather than us oldsters.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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Despite accusations to the contrary, I absolutely adore older folks having been raised in part by my grandmother and spending oodles of time around her quilting and candle pin bowling and church buddies in my youth. Wonderful geezers! And I love working with oldsters today, they have such wonderful stories and insight and that feeds my old soul. I’d love to have just one more month with my beloved grandma.

That said, I absolutely agree that all other things being equal a younger person should be prioritized over an oldster for an organ available for transplant. The only time I can imagine this might not be the case would be if the younger person were stable enough to wait for a better organ and the organ on offer was much older than that recipient - I know that when possible they try not to put 50+ year old kidneys into 20 year old recipients, for instance.

In general I think given a frank conversation and full disclosure, most oldsters would refuse much of the medical interventions they are subject to in the last few years or months of life. I fault our larger society’s inability to cope with death as a natural part of life, and our medical establishment’s general focus on fixes over holistic appreciation of the patient. There is abundant literature on the subject as the establishment is continually grappling with this concern - but most telling I think are the studies which have been done over the interventions physicians would and do choose for themselves and their own family members versus the ones they propose for patients in the same circumstances. All kinds of reasons for this but something we should be discussing more and more earnestly as we contemplate providing healthcare to all from cradle to grave and whether we should be spending 80-90% of a person’s lifetime healthcare outlay to preserve their life in the last 6-12 months of it.

The now numerous elderly clients I have attended in their final days at home would none of them have traded dying there for having another 3 months of life in a hospital or rehabilitation/care facility bed. Would you?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Big RR
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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I think the biggest problem is that physicians are trained to intervene, regardless of the ultimate outcome--doing nothing bothers them. I know I posted on this before, but I will never forget the last hours of my mother's life, where a persistent (and extremely insistent ) kept trying to get us to change our decision (really her decision, we discussed it at length as she was a nurse in a nursing home for much of her life and had definite views on what interventions she would/would not want). She had a massive stroke and was in the ER in a coma; the doctor wanted to put her on a ventilator, which she said she never wanted--over the next several hours, while she lay dying in front of me, the physician cam in again and again saying I could end all this if he could ventilate her (I finally threatened to throw him out physically if he came in again/he did not). The insensitivity displayed by this ass has stuck with me for nearly 20 years, but I have come to realize it's as much a a result of his training as his personality. It's not an excuse for his behavior--there's no excuse for the arrogance of much of the medical profession--but I think it's inevitable. It honestly scares me that someday m life might be in the hands of a similar asshole.

I think we will eventually have to address this, but sadly doubt it will be in my lifetime. I have tried to protect myself with advance medical directives and naming medical proxies, but I have seen hospitals/physicians ignoring these in some cases.

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Long Run
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Long Run »

If Sweden maintains this policy, it will provide a useful set of data to compare to, to determine how beneficial the more stringent measures are. I believe Brazil is also implementing fewer restrictions. I don’t want to be part of that experiment, but their higher risk approach may be a favor to us all.

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Guinevere
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Guinevere »

Big RR wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:13 pm
I think the biggest problem is that physicians are trained to intervene, regardless of the ultimate outcome--doing nothing bothers them. I know I posted on this before, but I will never forget the last hours of my mother's life, where a persistent (and extremely insistent ) kept trying to get us to change our decision (really her decision, we discussed it at length as she was a nurse in a nursing home for much of her life and had definite views on what interventions she would/would not want). She had a massive stroke and was in the ER in a coma; the doctor wanted to put her on a ventilator, which she said she never wanted--over the next several hours, while she lay dying in front of me, the physician cam in again and again saying I could end all this if he could ventilate her (I finally threatened to throw him out physically if he came in again/he did not). The insensitivity displayed by this ass has stuck with me for nearly 20 years, but I have come to realize it's as much a a result of his training as his personality. It's not an excuse for his behavior--there's no excuse for the arrogance of much of the medical profession--but I think it's inevitable. It honestly scares me that someday m life might be in the hands of a similar asshole.

I think we will eventually have to address this, but sadly doubt it will be in my lifetime. I have tried to protect myself with advance medical directives and naming medical proxies, but I have seen hospitals/physicians ignoring these in some cases.
20 years ago is a long long time in the medical world. From my experiences with my own parents over the last several years, the concept of hospice — care to keep a patiently comfortable but without “life saving” interventions is a standard part of geriatric care in hospitals and part of the panoply of options made available to any patient with a serious chronic illness. The hospice docs are offered to be a part of any good team, and take different roles depending on the wishes of the patient/family. My friends have had similar experiences with their parents.

As for the never quitting part of a doctor, yep, and we usually want that. The Attending caring for my Mom in her last hospitalization was very clear that as a cardiologist he would go and go until she/we told him otherwise. And we did, and he stepped back and hospice took over.

Finally, you don’t know until you know. Some people want those interventions, and hope is a very powerful thing. I don’t think we should judge them for that.
Last edited by Guinevere on Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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Big RR wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:17 pm
Unless they have a lot of money, or are a middle eastern prince and make a big "donation" to the hospital. However, as someone rapidly approaching my dotage, I think it makes a lot more sense to use such medical procedures for youger people rather than us oldsters.
How do you feel about a quadruple bypass? Should there be a sell-by date?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Crackpot
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

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Depends on the heath of the patient. Far to often the risks and potential outcomes are not properly weighed against the best possible outcome for any given procedure.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Big RR
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Re: Sweden does things differently..

Post by Big RR »

I agree with CP; it depends on what the likely outcome would be, as well as what the demand for the services is. I recall a friend's father who had triple bypass at 88, and it was the worst thing he ever did; his health and conditions seriously deteriorated after the bypass and he could n't even cross a room without sitting down once and being on oxygen; he lived like that for 6 years (and often said if he had known, he never would have had the procedure). Too often our fee for service medical industry just does procedures without weighing the costs and benefits--especially the republicans who decry "death panels".

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