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Student debt
Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:28 pm
by Gob
President Biden has recently committed to both closing the wealth gap between Black and white Americans, and addressing the student debt crisis.
While some have applauded him for these steps – in particular his plan to forgive $10,000 in student loans – there are many reasons why his actions are woefully inadequate. Biden owes us a lot more than the piecemeal proposals he has put forth.
According to the White House Initiative on Education Excellence for African Americans, Black college graduates have an average of $52,726 in student debt, compared to $28,006 for white students. A $10,000 student loan forgiveness would wipe out one-third of the burden of the average white debtor, while doing relatively little for the average Black debtor – and this is important because white debtors already have an easier time paying off their loans. Anything short of full forgiveness will only widen already existing disparities. White graduates, on average, owe 10% less than the amount they initially borrowed, Black graduates on the other hand owe 6% more than what they initially borrowed, and Black borrowers are more likely to never be able to pay off their loans at any point in their lives.
Offering student debt abolition for Black students is the right thing to do, both morally and politically. Politically, because Biden owes his victory to Black voters, and should offer them something concrete in return for their loyalty. And morally, because he has personally contributed to many of the inequities that plague Black Americans today.
While Biden is hardly the single chief architect of American racism, he has contributed to institutional racism since his early days as a bipartisanship-obsessed senator from Delaware. He opposed the desegregation of schools through federally mandated bussing programs that would have Black students attend better funded white schools. He argued that there were other ways to desegregate, particularly through housing, but opponents pointed out that he could simply support both paths. He also argued that it should be up to local municipalities to make the decision, using the same local autonomy argument that conservatives used to oppose most plans for desegregation. Data would later show that bussing was one of the most effective means of desegregating schools, until it was rolled back in the 80s and 90s. Schools immediately began to resegregate and have remained segregated since.
More here...
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:06 am
by rubato
Borrowing for education is a voluntary act. H would do more good by disallowing using all student loans for useless 'degree mills' and requiring a higher level of accreditation for any student loans.
Combined with vigorous prosecution of the ocean of fraudulent pseudo-educational institutions.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:09 am
by Scooter
There's nothing "voluntary" about borrowing from education when you aren't made of money. The days when those of our generation could finance their education and living expenses with what we could earn over a summer and a part-time job through the school year are long gone.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:27 am
by rubato
Bullshit. The amount is voluntary and generally shows a lack of consideration of the value of an 'education' from a particular institution in a particular field vs the eventual cost.
I'm sympathetic but people make stupid decisions. Any money recovered from the fraudulent institutions should be returned to the people conned by them.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:33 am
by rubato
I think that the govt should subsidize higher education to a great degree but it should not be free. 1. if something is free people will not value it; people never value something if it is free. 2. While education is valuable to society as a whole the greatest value goes to the person who receives the education. It is wrong to tax everyone to advantage the few. Therefore it should to a significant degree be paid by the student.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:28 am
by Scooter
Tuition (in-state) $10,000
Books $2,000
Residence $7,000
Meal plan $5,000
Total $24,000 for not even the barest necessities (students still have to clothe, groom themselves, etc.)
Gross earnings at minimum wage working full-time in summers and 10 hours/week during school: $7,685.
Tell us again about how student debt is "voluntary".
It's only "voluntary" if one chooses to forego an education and learns how to say "do you want fries with that" 800 times per day for the rest of one's life.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:56 am
by TPFKA@W
It's only "voluntary" if one chooses to forego an education and learns how to say "do you want fries with that" 800 times per day for the rest of one's life.
There is the affordable choice to join trades, if one's head is not so far up one's ass that one turns up one's nose at it. I have a stone mason relative who makes double what my BSN brought in. My nephew, a high school grad, now owns 2 trade businesses. He worked at it then bought it, then bought a second one. No one gave him any finacial help to attain his dream. The Fry life is not the only alternative to huge debt. It is quite voluntary.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:02 am
by rubato
I've known people in the trades who retired very well-off in their fifties.
Calif.
UC $11,660
Cal State $5742 yr
If you choose UC you are choosing to pay twice as much (and admission is more competitive).
minimum wage =15$ hr thus 30,000 $ year full time
And, of course, you can choose to work and offset part of your tuition costs. A technique I and several friends used to graduate with zero debt. Or you can choose not to and rack up the debt.
It is voluntary. And proven so.
In part I blame the "loan-mongering' which pushes people into stupid choices with too little guidance.
Anyone who finishes a BA/BS with $70,000 debt is a moron. And if you subsidize stupidity you will get more of it.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:56 am
by MajGenl.Meade
College/Uni is the great American parking lot for children that don't want to really leave home and for parents who think their duty is to encourage another 4 to 6 years of idling uselessly. And of course there's the college/uni conspiracy mill which has an unbeaten record of creating irrelevant and futile "degree" courses to attract more mice to their cheese.
The halls of academic institutions teem with people who should be out there earning a living rather than wasting their substandard substance on substandard "education" of no value to themselves or to society. Fewer college admissions - by at least 50% - is probably a worthy goal.
Those who truly benefit from college education and become useful citizens (50% less lawyers would still yield more than enough) will be able to go and earn their degrees with considerably more space available in the campus dining halls. All the rest could become artists and starve without the inconvenience of debt.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:18 am
by datsunaholic
Trade schools aren't free either. And very few employers are willing to take the risk of hiring to train.
My Dad started at Boeing when he was 18, basically right out of HS. Boeing footed the bill to train him as a draftsman and paid him a salary to boot. Served both my Dad and Boeing well; he was there over 45 years. Today, they expect you to have a degree, generally through an accredited tech school, before you can apply for the lowest entry level position.
My folks straight up told me that once I was out of High School, I was on my own educationwise. Even in 1992 I knew I couldn't afford it, so I took option "C" and joined the military. Ended up washing out of the Nuke program due to stress (turns out that's an ongoing mental health issue) and ended up a Diesel mechanic via happenstance. Probably should have STARTED there, but did my 4 years, had the GI bill and the tax returns of a enlisted sailor to show hardship and got financial aid to go to school.
I got a degree from a Tech school (in electronics engineering) but then realized that's NOT what I wanted to do. I didn't want to design circuit boards. I was fascinated by electronics, but ended up getting hired by a company to install software. Hated that too, switched to Software Quality Assurance (which nowadays requires a degree in computer sciences, which I don't have) so when I got laid off, I was essentially unhireable because I was a manual software test designer/tester- I did not nor had any desire to write code.
During my long unemployed stint I was applying or trying to apply to several union jobs. Problem one is no one wanted to hire/train a 40-something apprentice. A lot of unions required having a "sponsor" which is quite unhelpful when you don't know anyone. Only one I had a chance at was IBEW, as I knew a few electricians. What I wanted to do was apply for a job in the engineering dept for the State ferry system. I mean, I was a diesel engineer in the Navy from 1993-2003. But that doesn't count, I basically would have had to go to a maritime academy ($$$) to get Coast Guard certified. Meanwhile the ferry system can't fill positions because they require 5 years experience, and no one with 5 years experience wants the pay rate. You can make a LOT more riding tugs or fishing boats as a greenhorn than you could make in the ferries even after 10 years... difference is the ferries aren't hazardous and you're home every day.
So I ended up inspecting furnished apartments for a corporate housing provider, until COVID decimated the industry.
Now I drive a tow truck.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:03 am
by Gob
Scooter wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:28 am
Tell us again about how student debt is "voluntary".
It's only "voluntary" if one chooses to forego an education and learns how to say "do you want fries with that" 800 times per day for the rest of one's life.
If you live in rubato's little Champaign socialist world of wealth and privilege it's voluntary.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:03 pm
by BoSoxGal
MajGenl.Meade wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:56 am
College/Uni is the great American parking lot for children that don't want to really leave home and for parents who think their duty is to encourage another 4 to 6 years of idling uselessly. And of course there's the college/uni conspiracy mill which has an unbeaten record of creating irrelevant and futile "degree" courses to attract more mice to their cheese.
The halls of academic institutions teem with people who should be out there earning a living rather than wasting their substandard substance on substandard "education" of no value to themselves or to society. Fewer college admissions - by at least 50% - is probably a worthy goal.
Those who truly benefit from college education and become useful citizens (50% less lawyers would still yield more than enough) will be able to go and earn their degrees with considerably more space available in the campus dining halls. All the rest could become artists and starve without the inconvenience of debt.
This post is so fucking full of twattery it is almost unfuckingbelievable.
Go fuck yourself, wanker.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:57 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Brilliant, BSG! All that professoring really informs your argument.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:20 pm
by BoSoxGal
Wanker.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:12 pm
by Jarlaxle
MajGenl.Meade wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:56 am
College/Uni is the great American parking lot for children that don't want to really leave home and for parents who think their duty is to encourage another 4 to 6 years of idling uselessly. And of course there's the college/uni conspiracy mill which has an unbeaten record of creating irrelevant and futile "degree" courses to attract more mice to their cheese.
The halls of academic institutions teem with people who should be out there earning a living rather than wasting their substandard substance on substandard "education" of no value to themselves or to society. Fewer college admissions - by at least 50% - is probably a worthy goal.
Those who truly benefit from college education and become useful citizens (50% less lawyers would still yield more than enough) will be able to go and earn their degrees with considerably more space available in the campus dining halls. All the rest could become artists and starve without the inconvenience of debt.
Pretty much. Subsidizing tuition has resulted in skyrocketing costs...which, of course, was predictable.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:41 pm
by Scooter
Probably the first time anyone has ever equated drowning in debt with receiving a subsidy, but ok.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:24 pm
by Jarlaxle
Work on reading comprehension. Yours sucks.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:40 pm
by Guinevere
Education, whether in life, at college/university, or in the trades or technical school, is a good thing and to be desired. Student loans reflect that policy choice by the United States. I’m firmly behind it, and think we should and could do more, like making post secondary education available at no cost to everyone, say, up to age 35. (Please note I am saying no cost, and not “free.” Of course it will be paid for, by everyone who pays taxes, in some manner). Inserting private companies into the mix, only creates an income stream for them.
As for pitting college/university versus the trades, that’s bullshit. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to the place that fits them best, all are necessary, and all have value.
I’ll note, but not respond, to the ad hominem attack on the legal profession.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:42 pm
by Scooter
Jarlaxle wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:24 pm
Work on reading comprehension. Yours sucks.
In a thread about student debt, you talk about tuition being "subsidized". What's to comprehend, except that you are in serious need of a dictionary.
Re: Student debt
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:43 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:20 pm
Wanker.
That's better!
And Guin, your incomprehension of a joke is noted