Ouch, me foot!

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Gob
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Ouch, me foot!

Post by Gob »

An everyday story of US healthcare – or how a visit to the ER can cost you $10,000

I had dropped my kids off at school and was lifting one of their scooters, when I turned sharply and felt something ping in my foot.

Image

It wasn’t much; a bad cramp, I thought, more painful than usual, which would probably wear off by the time I got home. I limped back to my apartment, took painkillers and put it on ice. By the next morning, the foot had begun to turn black. By the evening, the flesh was rising like dough. “Ew,” said a friend, when I showed it to her that night. “You need a pedicure. Also: you need to see a doctor right now.”

It’s either laziness, Britishness, or a strain of my general belief in denial, but in most circumstances I’d rather suffer than bother the doctor. In the US, this impulse is compounded by the knowledge that, however much you spend on health insurance, even the smallest engagement with the medical establishment will result in a cascade of bills. I’m still fighting with my insurers over a $1,000 charge from last summer.

“It’ll be fine,” I said, and an hour later, when it wasn’t – the skin was now purple and gently contoured like foam – booked a 10pm video appointment with a podiatrist. He logged on via his phone from what seemed to be the parking lot of a restaurant in Long Island. “What’s all this?” he said. “Do you really need this appointment?” I showed him the foot. He squinted at the screen, crossed the lot and got into his car, where he turned on the light and squinted again. “OK, I don’t want panic you, but you need to seek emergency care right away.” My friend, meanwhile, had sent a photo of the foot to her brother in California, who is a doctor and also very much her brother. “Ew, she needs a pedicure,” he replied. “No one needs to see that. Also, that could be a blood clot, she needs to get to the ER.”

I left my kids with my friend and got in a taxi. “How bad is a blood clot?” I’d asked my friend’s brother before leaving, and he’d reassured me it was no big deal as long as it didn’t detach. “Then what?” “You’ll die instantly.” This was concerning, particularly since the solution, he said, was “not to jiggle the leg”, but at that point my fears lay elsewhere. It’s expensive to die in New York, and as we crossed Central Park, I rang my insurers to get pre-authorisation (a promise with approximately the value of Neville Chamberlain’s piece of paper, but you may as well try.)

Then I rang my friend Oliver. It’s curious to me now, what surfaced in that moment. “Can you make sure, if anything happens, that you take the girls to England,” I asked, as he scrambled to catch up. “What? Are you near the hospital? How far off are you?” “Make sure they know about England,” I repeated. “Take them for the summer, on holiday, to England.” I sounded mad. It’s amazing, looking back, that I didn’t mention the Isle of Wight, and which hotel they should stay at. “OK, but just let me know when you get to the hospital,” he said.

The ER was half-empty. I have always wondered whether, in an emergency, my personality would undergo an exciting change, converted in the heat of the moment from a sort of vaguely up-myself diffidence to something more thrusting and American. Now I know. “How are you, how can we help?” said the check-in clerk and reflexively I replied, “I’m fine.” For five minutes, I sat in the waiting room wondering if I was about to keel over and should be raising more alarm. Another five minutes passed, and the triage nurse came over. Even delivered in my apologetic, half-assed fashion, the words “suspected blood clot” had an immediate effect and I was sent straight through to the doctor.

It wasn’t a blood clot. It wasn’t a broken bone, either. No one that night could figure out what it was, except maybe a rip in the tendon, although they were very thorough and drew blood to rule out the possibility of low platelets. I don’t know what lesson to extract from all this, either, other than something reassuring about consistency of character.

Mainly, I’m aware, with weary resignation, that although the swelling has gone down and the foot is definitely on the mend, in other ways this is just the beginning. After an ultrasound, X-ray, blood test and patient transport all over New York’s premier hospital, I’m waiting for the inevitable $10,000 bill and the hours I will spend on the phone to contest it.

It’s the story of American healthcare; the real pain starts now.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-new-york
Top rate Guardian comment.
Guardian Pick

I would like to tell Americans my story. 13 years ago I was diagnosed with a rare bowel cancer. Within 2 weeks I was on the operating table having half my bowel removed. Since then I have had regular check-ups, including CT, MRI, and PET scans, a colonoscopy and gastroscopy, and countless blood tests. One of the CT scans picked up an abnormality in my heart. As a result, I had to have emergency open-heart surgery to remove a life-threatening mixoma from one of my heart chambers. I have an annual echo-cardiogram to check to see that it has not returned. No a single medical bill has come through my letter box. The direct cost to me a big fat Zero. Without or NHS I would either be dead or bankrupt.

This is nor socialism; it's the sign of a caring society. Get yourselves a proper free-at-the-point-of-delivery NHS.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Long Run
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Long Run »

Yes, if you do not have an insurance, the system definitely does not work to your advantage. (It can be maddening if you have insurance too sometimes). It would have helped the writer if they had insurance, which of course is her responsibility; moaning that the U.S. system is not as good as the NHS in this regard is . . ., well when in Rome (which, btw,is where I experienced the absolute worst medical care I have ever seen, so national plans differ greatly). That would start with learning the basics of navigating health care int he country you are living in. And the writer should have gone to her GP for an office evaluation since she did not have an emergency, at least initially. The next option is urgent care, which costs a fraction of a hospital ER. Then, going to the hospital in her network (assuming she does have insurance). If no insurance, then she is stuck trying to negotiate for charity care discounts, which is the semi-bogus way hospitals justify their tax exempt status.

For every story like this one, there are ten thousand of people who successfully got treatment under their program. But talking about the great and affordable care the vast majority get isn't as fun.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I think LR misunderstands the writer, who appears from the story to be a Brit, living in the USA and with health care insurance. Viz. "I’m still fighting with my insurers over a $1,000 charge from last summer".

Having said that, apart from the awful tragedy of having a swollen foot, my-oh-my, what is the purpose of the article?

The headline tells a lie: An everyday story of US healthcare – or how a visit to the ER can cost you $10,000

The writer has not yet been billed anything for the medical services provided. "I’m waiting for the inevitable $10,000 bill . . "

I guess we socially distancing from applauding first responders - if the first responders happen to be in an emergency room at a hospital. Bastards!
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Gob »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:03 pm


Having said that, apart from the awful tragedy of having a swollen foot, my-oh-my, what is the purpose of the article?
A warning not to let our lovely NHS go down the American model road. People are worried the Tories may take us that way.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Gob wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:29 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:03 pm
Having said that, apart from the awful tragedy of having a swollen foot, my-oh-my, what is the purpose of the article?
A warning not to let our lovely NHS go down the American model road. People are worried the Tories may take us that way.
How can it be a warning? She procrastinated over getting an injury diagnosed; clogged up an emergency room; has received medical care and hasn't had a bill yet. She doesn't know if it's $10k or $5K and she doesn't know if her health insurance will cover it or not because they haven't been billed either.

In other words, she's making up shit
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Joe Guy
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Joe Guy »

She doesn't even know if she will be expected to foot the bill.

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Long Run
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Long Run »

She thought writing this was a swell idea but she should have iced that until she knew more.

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Econoline
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Econoline »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 8:25 pm
Gob wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:29 pm
MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:03 pm
Having said that, apart from the awful tragedy of having a swollen foot, my-oh-my, what is the purpose of the article?
A warning not to let our lovely NHS go down the American model road. People are worried the Tories may take us that way.
How can it be a warning? She procrastinated over getting an injury diagnosed; clogged up an emergency room; has received medical care and hasn't had a bill yet. She doesn't know if it's $10k or $5K and she doesn't know if her health insurance will cover it or not because they haven't been billed either.

In other words, she's making up shit
And yet, and yet...if she'd done the same thing under the same circumstances back home in the UK, she would have known for sure, in advance, just how much of a financial risk she was taking: i.e., NONE. (Not to mention that, had she known that there was absolutely *NO* risk of severe financial consequences, she would have had absolutely *NO* reason to procrastinate as long as she wound up procrastinating.)

"Making up shit"??? No, more like "worrying about something that might (or might not) be worth worrying about." And given her ongoing year-long fight with her insurers, it's hard to make the case that it's not something worth worrying about.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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dales
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by dales »

Sounds to me like she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Except in the UK she might have had to wait until doomsday for an appointment. Oh sorry - I forgot that she'd have clogged up an Emergency room there too

Heh heh. Clogged
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Econoline
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Econoline »

OK, I'm not all that familiar with NHS policies and priorities, so I honestly don't know the answer to these questions. Enlighten me, please, Gob, Meade, and Andy: given that two doctors told her, by phone, (1) “OK, I don’t want panic you, but you need to seek emergency care right away.” and (2) “That could be a blood clot, she needs to get to the ER.”...in the UK, would she really have not had access to emergency care? And would she really have had to “wait until doomsday” for an appointment?
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

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Gob
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Gob »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 8:25 pm

How can it be a warning? She procrastinated over getting an injury diagnosed; clogged up an emergency room; has received medical care and hasn't had a bill yet. She doesn't know if it's $10k or $5K and she doesn't know if her health insurance will cover it or not because they haven't been billed either.

In other words, she's making up shit
You're all heart you, aren't you.... :lol:
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Econoline wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:52 am
OK, I'm not all that familiar with NHS policies and priorities, so I honestly don't know the answer to these questions. Enlighten me, please, Gob, Meade, and Andy: given that two doctors told her, by phone, (1) “OK, I don’t want panic you, but you need to seek emergency care right away.” and (2) “That could be a blood clot, she needs to get to the ER.”...in the UK, would she really have not had access to emergency care? And would she really have had to “wait until doomsday” for an appointment?
No - my post negated the normal waiting game, didn't it?

Or is this: "Oh sorry - I forgot that she'd have clogged up an Emergency room there too" somehow not clear, hmmm? Important section emphasized :D

Yes I am all heart, Gob. I don't go telling porkies to make an article seem to have relevance (other than as part of a humorous column)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Big RR »

Point taken Meade, but her statement "In the US, this impulse is compounded by the knowledge that, however much you spend on health insurance, even the smallest engagement with the medical establishment will result in a cascade of bills." is also very true. US health insurance is a morass that is difficult for even insurance professionals to understand. I had a friend a few years back who fell and shattered his elbow; he went to the emergency room of a hospital in his network and they got him n orthopedist who was not in his network. Yes, the policy covers payments to out of network providers in a emergency, but only at the discounted rate in network providers agree to accept (presumably because they get more referrals through the network. The final verdict was that he owed the orthopedist another $25,000 for the surgery (I interceded and got it down to about $20,000); perfectly legal. The doctor said he had no obligation to accept less, the hospital (which was in network) said they had no responsibility to make sure in network providers were used, and my friend, in an emergency, had pretty much no say on who performed the surgery (Of course, he did have the ultimate word, but when you are in shock/pain and on Demerol, the network of the provider is not something you are thinking of. So, in addition to the coinsurance payments, he was out another $20,000. Give them time, I'm sure she'll see a bill.

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Long Run
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Long Run »

That type of situation, BigRR, has been a bane of the system for years and gotten worse. Which is why Congress recently passed a law to prevent this practice (hey, even Congress can get it right every now and then). The federal law follows closely the no-surprise billling scheme enacted a couple of years ago in Washington State. Starting next year, a physician like the orthopedist you describe cannot just force his bill on an unwilling patient, and there will be an $A or $B arbitration to decide on his fee. If it is like Washington,there will be few if any arbitrations as the physician and the insurer will settle using some "average" schedules.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:21 pm
Point taken Meade
Point taken, Big RR ;)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Long Run
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Long Run »

Of course, we could get a first hand account of a very similar and recent situation by one of our own (Crackpot), and let us know what really happens when you suddenly damage your lower leg.

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Crackpot
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Crackpot »

It wasn’t “sudden” as I didn’t immediately seek aid and when I did it was though the “proper” channels initial “ER” visit was though an approved facility etc etc. though out of pocket expenses have already exceed my families Heath care spending account for the year so all regular health visits and medication co pays are out of pocket for the rest of the year for the entire family
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Gob
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Gob »

Talk about adding insult to injury...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

Big RR
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Re: Ouch, me foot!

Post by Big RR »

CP--I imagine you already know this, but most policies have a capped out of pocket expense; make sure you don't pay in excess of this.

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