First Washington, Now Cleveland

[liberty]

I am a quarter Amerindian, and my great grandmother was fully Indian, and evidently, neither one of us was concerned about it. My great-grandmother didn’t advertise it; her children didn’t even know they were Indian until she had died and they found her papers. I see nothing wrong with the word Indian; it makes more sense than Native American. Anyone born in a place is a native of that place. Would one refer to the indigenous people of Europe as native Europeans and exclude the members of immigrant families born there?

[Scooter]

I am the only one who said they knew an Indian who insists on being an Indian.

You weren't the only one who wrote a post along those lines. If I wanted to single you out, I wouldn't be coy about it.

Let's put it this way, for those who don't get it. A census taker comes to your neighbourhood, and because he is drunk, or otherwise impaired, he comes to the house where you, Bob Jones, live, but he thinks he is at the house of John Smith, who actually lives a few blocks away. So he registers you as John Smith, ignoring any attempt on your part to identify yourself as Bob Jones. So you are now known as John Smith for any purpose. If you want to vote, you have to identify yourself as John Smith, because saying you are actually Bob Jones will get you nowhere. Your SSN gets recorded in the name of John Smith, and that's what your employer calls you, so that's the name you must answer to. Anyone who hears you called John Smith insists on using that name and won't respect your desire to be called Bob Jones. So you have two options, you can insist on being called Bob Jones, and be accused of being "angry" and "uppity" for not accepting the name that was mistakenly bestowed on you. Or you can decide that it isn't worth making trouble and go through your life accepting being misnamed.

Does that sound ridiculous? Because that is EXACTLY what "Indian" represents for Indigenous peoples of the Americas.

500 years ago, a geographically-challenged blowhard made a goof of colossal proportions, and the objects of his screw up are supposed to be happy about it in perpetuity. Plus, you know, the genocide.

[Big RR]

I don't understand Scooter; yes, Columbus called the native Americans "Indians" because he mistakenly thought he was in India, but whatever he called them would have no relevance to them as they did not speak Spanish (or English or Italian); they had their own names in their own language (and FWIW did not have any generic name for the entire populace of the Americas (which weren't even the Americas). Yes, I have heard some native Americans complain about the term Indian (and prefer other terms, including identification by their ancestral tribes, and not a generic term), but I have heard others that embrace it and prefer it to other terms proffered. I am more than happy to let themselves make that choice--why aren't you? They can defend themselves and don't need a white man to speak for them.

ETA: I do know you claimed in an earlier post that there are no native Americans on Plan B (although how you can make this statement with any ceriainty is beyond me) and that someone has to speak up and counter the colonial narrative; but since there is hardly unanimity in the community about this issue, I honestly don't see how you can presume to speak for that community (anymore than any of us can). You want to play devil's advocate and just counter the propositions, fine; but you should not posit your comments as speaking for that community.

[Scooter]

I don't presume to speak for anyone. That there is widespread hatred of the term "indian " among Indigenous peoples of the Americas is a matter of public record.

Should I next be disallowed from saying that the earth is not flat because I am not a rock?

And if there were Indigenous posters here to speak to the question, there would still be those who said, "well my friend so-and-so has no problem being called an Indian," much in the same way they would trot out the obligatory (always white) gay (always male) person who didn't believe in anti-discrimination laws/same-sex marriage/gays in the military/name your equality issue of choice.

[Big RR]

Understood Scooter, but the "hatred" as you term it is far from universal from persons I have heard on TV and Radio interviews who say they prefer the use of the Indian term; I have also seen it used by tribes in connection with tribal casinos (which also reveals that the hatred of the term is not universal; sure, it is in connection with a business, but I don't think you'd ever see Dr, King's N***er casino--there's hatred and there's hatred). So I fail to see how you can justify you statement:

"And the white colonial fragility can't help outing itself..."

I do recall that you in the past criticized old white men for telling black people who they should feel--aren't you doing the same thing for native/indigenous peoples?

[Scooter]

I am not in any way telling Indigenous people how to feel. I am telling white people to hear what they do feel and respond accordingly, without falling back on the excuse that some of them (pretend that they) don't care.

[Sue U]

Here's a comment my brother made over there on the big ol' Book o' Faces: "Guardians? That's the best they could come up with?
How about the Cleveland Rocks (or the Cleveland Rockers)? Plus that would given them multiple options for a mascot - anything from an electric guitar to a boulder to a rocking chair."

I can't believe they didn't go for the most obvious and most bestest choice: Cleveland Rocks. Fer chrissakes it even comes with hit song built right in (no need for yet another stupid rendition of Sweet Caroline). What is wrong with their marketing department?

(There was some legal reason they couldn't use Spiders again I hear, but surely there was another name that might have worked - Zebras? Hippos? Some animal. Pythons? Cobras?

Looks like they wanted the "ians" ending to echo the old discarded name

Did no one suggest Simians?

[Big RR]

falling back on the excuse that some of them (pretend that they) don't care.

While I will admit I am not an expert on the feelings of native Americans, I have seen no evidence that those who profess to not caring (or prefer to the use of Indian as a generic term) are pretending. Unless you have some proof of that (and I would love to see it), I would suggest that you should not project your opinions onto them.

[Scooter]

I can only speak to my own conversations with Indigenous people, who whether to conserve their energy or to avoid conflict or for whatever reason, do not always choose to challenge or correct language that they are confronted with that they deem to be inappropriate or offensive. Just because someone appears to acquiesce doesn't mean they are actually okay with it.

The oppressed can't always be expected to carry water for the oppressors in educating themselves.

[Big RR]

OK, 'nuff said.

However,

The oppressed can't always be expected to carry water for the oppressors in educating themselves.

Touche; I'm saving that.

[Econoline]

There are an enormous number of reasons to be embarrassed, ashamed, and horrified by what Europeans (and we, their descendants) did to the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Using a stupid and outdated collective noun because of its stupid and inaccurate use by a stupid and inhumane Italian asshole five centuries ago has got to be somewhere around the one-billionth reason on that list.

As far as I can tell, disapproval of the term "Indian" seems to be more common and stronger in Canada than it is in the United States. And of course an overwhelming portion of the people pushing to change the names of sports teams are white liberals rather than indigenous people.

[Crackpot]

I also think there may be a different opinion between US and Canadian natives due to differing history with differing colonial powers. My (soon to be) SIL says there are noticeable differences between Great Lakes Region Indians and those from western states. The Natives in my region have a long his of interbreeding with the white man and also weren’t majorly effected by the Trail of Tears and as a result they aren’t as anti US as many other tribes and regions.

[ex-khobar Andy]

And of course an overwhelming portion of the people pushing to change the names of sports teams are white liberals rather than indigenous people.

I can believe it. Indigenous people (I am not one; I'm probably your classic white liberal) have bigger fish to fry such as poverty, actual discrimination (sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me), loss of important religious and cultural symbols and so on. What the idiot white man chooses to call his baseball team is probably of lesser importance and says more about him (the I.W.M) than it does about the indigenous people. And for us classic liberals, it's a bit of an easier fix than the poverty stuff. So yes, I believe it.

[Joe Guy]

I'm sick of people being outraged for other people. I worked with a person who was 100% Pawnee and called herself a Pawnee Indian. Long ago I worked with a Chinese man who called himself ABC (American Born Chinese) and told me that CBC (guess what that stands for) have a dislike for ABC. I have a close friend from El Salvador who told me once, "I'm from El Salvador but here in the Bay Area I'm considered Mexican". He thinks that's funny. I'm called a white man by black and other people and I can live with that because that's how life is. People categorize groups by their appearance and/or who they associate with.

It's stupid how some people seem to be always be looking for things to get offended about. In fact, you may recall that I've written here about how offended I am by offended people. I'm very critical of people who get offended for other people they don't even know. Go ahead and be sympathetic but don't tell me what somebody else is thinking and why I should feel bad for what I think.

Just knock it the fuck off! If being called an Indian or a white man is the worst problem you have in your life, you ought to be thankful. And if someone who is an Indian is called an Indian and would rather be called Cherokee it's not for me to complain. I'll just call that person by his/her name anyway.

The Cleveland baseball team chose a stupid name but fans probably won't care much if the team is able to win more games than they lose.

[Crackpot]

If not for the mascot the name would probably get a pass

[Bicycle Bill]

As far as I can tell, disapproval of the term "Indian" seems to be more common and stronger in Canada than it is in the United States. And of course an overwhelming portion of the people pushing to change the names of sports teams are white liberals rather than indigenous people.

What E-line said.  White liberals find a couple of token red men who claim to be offended, and proceed to piss in the punchbowl until someone decides that this hill ain't worth dying on (or worth spending a huge amount of time and a boat-load of money answering all these lawsuits) and they finally get their way.

It was the same way a couple of decades ago when Anne Gaylor and her Madison (WI)-based "Freedom From Religion Foundation" was going around picking fights about Ten Commandment monoliths and municipally-sanctioned Nativity displays in public places at Christmas time.  Most of the time, local residents/atheists/people of non-Christian beliefs didn't give a shit one way or the other, so she and her band of kooks would shake the trees, beat the bushes, and turn over rocks until they found one or two local citizens who agreed to be the figurehead to "speak" for those who claimed to be "offended'" by such a display, and start filing suites, restraining orders, and demands to have them removed.  And while they did win some victories, getting displays relocated or having government funding or support shut off, most of the time they came up empty-handed as the cases were either dismissed or — as was done in several communities, including my own — the local government officials resolved the matter by selling the small parcel of land to someone like the local Eagles' club who left it right where it was, merely fencing it off as a private park and creating an enclave 'park-within-a-park' .. and giving ol' Atheist Annie a symbolic middle finger all the while.

-"BB"-

[Bicycle Bill]

If not for the mascot the name would probably get a pass.

I will agree that this image was insensitive as hell, but didn't that particular version of Chief Wahoo officially get the heave-ho a couple of years before this?

-"BB"-

[Crackpot]

Nope

[MGMcAnick]

Looks like they wanted the "ians" ending to echo the old discarded name

And maybe even be able to use part of their old signage.

One of my full blooded native American friends, whom I see nearly every day, has no problem with being referred to as an Indian. Another has a vanity license tag that reads NDN. He says he never could spell. Another is retired from his own small construction company he called Indian Nations Inc.

Note that this list of tribes in Oklahoma (Who knew there were so many?) refers to them as American Indian tribes.
https://www.okhistory.org/research/aitribes

Many of the tribes refer to themselves as Indian Nations. Some nations have license tags which are often seen here. http://www.worldlicenseplates.com/usa/AI_OKCH.html

The largest is the Cherokee Nation, whose ancestors arrived in Oklahoma at the end of the trail of tears. If you are not familiar with the trail of tears, here is more than I know about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

If a person could be shown to be at least 1/16 Cherokee, they were forced to walk to Oklahoma. My blonde haired, blue eyed Mrs Mc, who is mostly of German heritage, would have been one of those had she been born 130 years earlier. Her Cherokee ancestor was a blacksmith in South Carolina. His family was so Americanized that they had taken the last name of Smith.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~prsjr/ge ... 0_1854.jpg

[liberty]

What would be wrong with using European savage warriors as mascots? Spartans, Romans, and various German and Celtic tribes would make a lot to from which to choose. When it comes to fierce, savage warriors, my euro ancestors made others look like pussies in comparison.