Bride value

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Gob
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Bride value

Post by Gob »

A landmark judgment that could bring part of UK law into line with sharia law’s position on “bride price” payments is to be announced this week in the central London county court, in a case backed by a women’s charity.

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A bride price – or mahr – is one of the important aspects of an Islamic marriage contract. It is a gift, or a promise of a gift, to the wife by the husband. It is agreed between the parents or guardians of the bride and the groom verbally or in writing shortly before the couple’s marriage.

Under sharia law, the wife has the right to ask for her full mahr at any time during her marriage or upon its dissolution. South Asian women married under UK civil law, however, are currently unable to demand its payment in full on divorce. They must instead apply to the family court, which typically demands only the partial payment of the money as part of the overall financial settlement under section 25 of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973.

Until now, the UK courts have dealt only with cases involving written mahr contracts. The case in question is the first involving an alleged oral contract to be heard in the UK courts.

Nazma Quraysha Brishty has taken her ex-husband, former mother-in-law and former father-in-law, Maksudul, Shahinur and Izaharul Halder, to the county court to demand the full payment of her mahr, which she says is worth approximately £55,000.

The couple had a mutually agreed, arranged marriage in England in January 2017. They separated later that year and were divorced in 2018. Brishty’s former in-laws paid her £5,005 – the mahr written in their Islamic certificate of marriage – but have refused to pay the remaining sum that Brishty says her former father-in-law promised verbally, in the presence of her father and another witness, before and at the wedding ceremony. Her ex-husband and his family deny there was an oral contract.

“If this case is won in favour of Nazma, this decision will be an overwhelming triumph not only for her but also for other women in her circumstances,” said Thamina Kabir, the principal solicitor at Thamina Solicitors, who is representing Brishty.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/au ... ce-dispute
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Bride value

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Obviously the aspect of this that will lead to pearl clutching is shock! horror! Sharia law in UK! I don't see this as anything more than affirmation is that a contract is a contract and should be upheld.

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Gob
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Re: Bride value

Post by Gob »

"The case in question is the first involving an alleged oral contract to be heard in the UK courts."

I think that is more the point.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Bride value

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.

However Mr Google found this for me in 0.32 seconds, from The London Law Practice website:
According to UK law, verbal contracts are binding where two or more parties agree on services to be performed and on remuneration for said services. However, verbal contracts do not apply to certain types of agreements which require detailed and specific terms. For example, written contracts are necessary for property purchase or tenancy agreements, consumer credit contracts, and the transfer or licensing of intellectual property rights.
Looks to me like any other verbal contract: they are common in business and often (but by no means always) enforceable.

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Sue U
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Re: Bride value

Post by Sue U »

Gob wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:14 pm
"The case in question is the first involving an alleged oral contract to be heard in the UK courts."

I think that is more the point.
Oral contracts have been part of English common law for at least 800 years. The principles of oral contract are firmly entrenched, literally in centuries of court decisions. This is apparently a first only as the law is applied to a culturally Muslim marriage contract. (I note in passing that traditional Jewish marriage contracts also generally contain similar provisions.) The article quoted in the OP doesn't specify whether this case is being heard in a chancery (equity) court or a law (contracts) court, and as archaic as these distinctions may sound, they still make a difference in what can be claimed and what the available defenses may be.
GAH!

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Long Run
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Re: Bride value

Post by Long Run »

In general, these agreements are a lot like a pre-nuptial. And verbal agreements of such would be enforceable or not under the Statute of Frauds, which at least in this country, requires a written contract for marital matters.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Bride value

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So, a dowry system is where the bride’s family pays someone to marry her, and a mahr is where the groom and his family pay the bride/her family for the right to marry her?

I suppose one is slightly less insulting than the other, but in both the bride is a commodity.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Sue U
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Re: Bride value

Post by Sue U »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:59 pm
So, a dowry system is where the bride’s family pays someone to marry her, and a mahr is where the groom and his family pay the bride/her family for the right to marry her?
No, that's not it at all. Customarily, dowry is property brought into a marriage from the bride and/or her family and is meant as financial assistance so the newlyweds can establish their own household. Mahr is the contractual responsibility of the groom and/or his family to provide the bride with financial assets of her own.
GAH!

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Re: Bride value

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Sue U wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:35 pm
BoSoxGal wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:59 pm
So, a dowry system is where the bride’s family pays someone to marry her, and a mahr is where the groom and his family pay the bride/her family for the right to marry her?
No, that's not it at all. Customarily, dowry is property brought into a marriage from the bride and/or her family and is meant as financial assistance so the newlyweds can establish their own household. Mahr is the contractual responsibility of the groom and/or his family to provide the bride with financial assets of her own.
God help me, I have to agree with BSG on this one.  Either way it sounds like there is a 'price' or 'value' attached to the bride, in much the same manner as there is a price or value attached to spending time with residents of certain establishments in Nevada or sections of Amsterdam.
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Econoline
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Re: Bride value

Post by Econoline »

If the bride's family pays someone to marry her, aren't they in effect buying the groom?
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Re: Bride value

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Interesting. I actually attended, by accident, a session at which this was all agreed. Living in Libya I had to go to a meeting at the Baladiya (town hall) one evening: I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere and ended up in a room with a bunch of elderly folk (men and women) arguing. I was curious so I stayed to watch. My Arabic was good enough to at least get the gist of what was going on - it was a public meeting and people wandered in and out. They were negotiating the bride price for a wedding which was going to take place shortly if agreement could be reached.

Islamic law prohibits dowry - the payment of a price by the bride's family. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, maybe disguised in some way. But it does require mahr, which is payment by the groom's family so that the bride has some financial independence. In practice mahr can be an iron ring according to the relevant Koran quote which does not sound like a lot of independence but maybe it was in Mohammed's day.

Once I realized what was going on I stayed to watch, and I more or less knew what mahr was. I don't recall what the number ended up at, but it was several times my monthly salary which was more than most locals earned.

Next day my boss wondered where I had been so I told him about the negotiation I had been to. It wasn't a very important meeting I had missed so he was not cross, but it turned out that the young woman involved was the district nurse whom I knew. She also worked for him so he knew all about it.

Some of what we think should be private was very public. One night I was on my way home to my village when I had to stop for a group of young lads - maybe late teens - who were running up and down the main drag with a white bedsheet, covered in blood. This was the proof that their sister (??) was a virgin on her wedding night and was a source of family pride. (This wasn't my friend the district nurse - that would have been weird.)

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Long Run
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Re: Bride value

Post by Long Run »

Nice story, Andy, thanks for sharing.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Bride value

Post by BoSoxGal »

Nice story? I don’t see any nice stories in this thread.

Maybe I should add one: did you hear about the Taliban rape gangs currently roaming the streets of Kabul raping 12 year old girls to death?

Come to think of it maybe it’s not such a bad thing that this species is on the way out.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Bride value

Post by Bicycle Bill »

BSG?  I suggest you read the Bible, specifically Deuternomy 22:13-18.  The idea of hymeneal blood on the sheets as proof of virginity is nothing new, nor is it unique to Islam, Sharia law, or the Taliban.

Now you and I both know that this is a notoriously inconclusive proof, as whether — or how much — blood is shed as a result of the initial rupture of the hymen varies widely from individual to individual... not to mention that someone may have already 'let their fingers do the walking' and obliterated the hymen in that manner.  So if someone were
running up and down the main drag with a white bedsheet, covered in blood
as proof that their sister/other female relative was a virgin on her wedding night and was a source of family pride (or 'family honor'), I suspect there may have been some 'enhancement' of the 'evidence'.

I suppose the other question is how long was a father supposed to hang onto the bedclothes as evidence?
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Gob
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Re: Bride value

Post by Gob »

Good tale Andy, thanks for sharing....
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Gob
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Re: Bride value

Post by Gob »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:33 am
Nice story? I don’t see any nice stories in this thread.

Maybe I should add one: did you hear about the Taliban rape gangs currently roaming the streets of Kabul raping 12 year old girls to death?

Come to think of it maybe it’s not such a bad thing that this species is on the way out.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Long Run
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Re: Bride value

Post by Long Run »

BoSoxGal wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:33 am
Nice story?
The nice was referring to Andy's personal experience which he took the time to share with us. Interesting would have been a better word choice.

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