Proper sport controversy.

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Econoline
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Econoline »

Also stolen (this time from a Facebook comment thread about the recent volcanic activity from Mauna Loa):
"Pelé erupts during the World Cup, naturally!"
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by BoSoxGal »

In real life 82 year old Pele has just entered hospice care in hospital, having reached the point where his cancer is no longer responsive to treatment.

Seemed appropriate to share that here, in case any football fans weren’t aware.
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

One of the greatest . . . much hacked and a good hacker himself. Bruised and bleeding ankles and shins, par for the course - his and theirs.

Also a brilliant player of the ball, terrific sense of position and anticipation, and not-at-all an asshole (i.e. Maradona).
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

Pele is still in hospital and there are, at best, conflicting reports about his health. A few days ago he was said to be under hospice care with no further treatment planned; and some current reports suggest that he is responding well to treatment.

As to Maradona: I don't recall that he was especially regarded as an asshole*. He was obviously loved by fans who of course do not see the real man but whatever it is he wishes to project: but I think he occasionally topped fellow players' polls and these are the guys who knew him est.

* by comparison with other athletes of extraordinary skill

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:55 pm
As to Maradona: I don't recall that he was especially regarded as an asshole*.
He was a cheat, which outweighs any amount of skill.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:01 pm
ex-khobar Andy wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:55 pm
As to Maradona: I don't recall that he was especially regarded as an asshole*.
He was a cheat, which outweighs any amount of skill.
So is Dishonest John Trump, but he is still admired — nay, worshipped! — by countless millions of Americans.

-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

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Long Run
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Long Run »

World Cup finale was one for the ages. Controversy, not so much, though plenty of referring to complain about as usual. Glad they have some video review of key plays to reverse the worst of the blown calls.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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Long Run wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:56 pm
World Cup finale was one for the ages. Controversy, not so much, though plenty of referring to complain about as usual. Glad they have some video review of key plays to reverse the worst of the blown calls.
There was not one VAR reverse of the excellent referee in the (as you correctly describe) finale "for the ages". Best game since 1966 and with the "right" result (AFAIAC). Viva Messi!

But yes, there were some egregious ref errors before the Final and that one guy was sent home quite rightly.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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The ref missed a number of fouls both sides and both ways (calling fouls that didn't exist, not calling fouls that did). Since France's defense seemed to be based around constant fouling and daring the ref to call them all. Like Argentina, England generally outplayed France and should have won their match, but the striped team had Messi and better guys at putting the ball where it needed to go.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by BoSoxGal »

I will have to watch the game later this week, was not able to watch broadcast today but everyone is saying it was the best World Cup final ever. Is that true?

Though I suspect a big part of what made it terrific was the excitement of watching live and wondering if Messi would get his World Cup, finally.
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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The only thing I didn't like is the way the ultimate winner was declared; it was a big letdown (and always is IMHO), but thems the rules. Otherwise, an exciting game.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I think it's worth watching, BSG. And yes, the best WC Final since 1966 without a doubt. And the most dramatic.

BigRR - if you think penalties a bad way to determine the winner (after 90 mins + and then 30 mins + of open play), then I guess you would have hated the old way. (Altho' the old way was never needed in a World Cup Final).
Until the 1970s, there were no definitive rules in football about how to determine a winner if none of the above tie-break methods produced one.

For the sake of convenience, drawing lots or a coin toss was used to determine a victor. Famously, one of the semi-finals of the 1968 Euros was determined by a coin toss, which saw eventual champions Italy progress after playing out a goalless draw against the Soviet Union.

The Israel vs Bulgaria quarter-finals in the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico is another example. After a 1-1 draw, Bulgaria progressed to the semi-finals after drawing lots. The match, in particular, paved the way for penalty shootouts in football.
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Long Run
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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Okay, the current method is better than the brain-dead flipping a coin. Better (best) system would be first one to score in overtime wins. It is difficult to score so this makes way more sense than the extra periods. If no score within 30 minutes of extra time, start pulling players, one every 10 minutes to open up the field, making it certain there will be a score within a few players being pulled. Of course, they could get more scoring if they would do away with the dumbest major rule in any major sport -- offsides (HTF is there offsides on a corner kick?).

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Long Run wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:15 pm
Okay, the current method is better than the brain-dead flipping a coin. Better (best) system would be first one to score in overtime wins. It is difficult to score so this makes way more sense than the extra periods. If no score within 30 minutes of extra time, start pulling players, one every 10 minutes to open up the field, making it certain there will be a score within a few players being pulled. Of course, they could get more scoring if they would do away with the dumbest major rule in any major sport -- offsides (HTF is there offsides on a corner kick?).
Er what you call "overtime" is actually "extra time"? I guess you're saying that extra time should be 30 mins non-stop to see if someone scores a goal? Clearly, you've never played 90 mins of pro-soccer, let alone 30 mins more (me either). Why on earth would you think that pulling two tired players off would open up anything? How about goalkeepers? They don't do much all game and deserve to be tossed out for laziness.

How can you be offside on a corner kick? I don't think I've ever seen that in 65 years of watching football. I've seen the player who took the corner fail to get onside before receiving the ball back from one of his own team . . . happened to Luca Modric in the 3rd/4th place game. Another good rule to keep, goal-hanging is ugly

Fans, players, FIFA and everyone on the planet hated the "Golden Goal" (let alone the bloody awful Silver one)

"Play began to stall in extra time as teams, fearful of conceding a goal, reigned in their attacking impulses in favor of a more strategically defensive mindset. With few teams ever venturing forward, counter attacks moved toward extinction, and squads began designing tactical schemes to get them into a shootout. From a bird’s eye perspective, what was thought to be an innovative choice swiftly became a noticeable barrier to the sport’s modern-day evolution, and some even pointed out the subsequent security issues it created at stadiums as the intense pressure to score could spiral into jeopardizing referees’ safety. Interestingly enough, before totally eradicating the rule, FIFA tried a variation of it with the “Silver Goal” where the squad leading after the first period in extra time extras would be declared the winner, but the ruling could never find favor with fans and players alike and was ultimately terminated"
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Big RR »

Meade--personally, I'd rather see a tie after 30 minutes (or whatever makes sense) extra time and co-champions for the tied teams, but that's just me. Or perhaps they could do successive extra time periods with liberal substitution permitted (get to see how deep a team each side has0; this is sort of what the NHL does in post season games where championships are at stake). Or maybe they could take a break of a few hours, followed by another half. There are a lot of ways to break a tie that are relevant to the skill of the team.

Sure, penalty kicks beat flipping a coin, but not by much IMHO. It's like taking a tied baseball game ans staging a homerun derby to break the tie; I understand people don't want ties (and not only fans in the US), but having the champion decided by luck (or mostly luck) rings a little hollow. AMybe leaving it as a tie is the best way.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

There are a lot of ways to break a tie that are relevant to the skill of the team.
I'd say that kicking a penalty is a relevant skill. Trying to save one is also a relevant skill. Any other method is bizarre, foreign and probably French (a la bas!)

But what you'd prefer is what you'd prefer and I can only be glad such things will never happen. :lol:

Never.

Right? :o :( :? :arg
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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by Big RR »

But what you'd prefer is what you'd prefer and I can only be glad such things will never happen. :lol:

Never.

Right?
I guess so; you obviously have more sway with FIFA than me. :D

And FWIW, penalty kicks and defense against them are more re;levant personal skills than the skill of the team--like hitting homeruns or running on the baseline more quickly.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

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The coin flip or drawing lots to see who won the contest was stupid, absolutely. And yet, the MOTU of soccer had this stupid rule for quite some time. So, we cannot trust a sport that is so willing to have such an absurdity.

The penalty kick method is better than a coin flip but only marginally so. Almost as much luck is involved, but penalty kicks do regularly occur in matches. But as pointed out, this is like having a home run derby decide a baseball game, or a free-throw shooting contest decide a tie basketball game.

The golden goal was much better. The main reason it only had a short existence is there was a perception that it was not fair -- as if penalty kicks or a coin flip is fair. Of course playing regular soccer until someone scores is a much preferred way to break a tie. And yes, some teams went into extra defensive mode to prevent a score but Sweden employed that strategy to get through most of the 1998 World Cup (as have others). If they stayed with the golden goal, teams will eventually do the statistical analysis of how their chances are when they are more or less aggressive. But the overly defensive argument actually concedes that the golden goal is the right approach -- there's only one reason to not have sudden victory, i.e., too much defense. Just like basketball disallowed defensive sitting under the basket, the same approach could be brought to soccer, kind of a reverse off-sides that does not allow players to stay in a defensive position without an opponent on a parallel.

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Re: Proper sport controversy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Long Run wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:38 pm
The golden goal . . . . much better.
Image
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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