Plan B Forum

A recent public disagreement between Mr. S. Pippin and Mr. K.A. Jabbar (nee Lew Alcindor) over the relative skills and worth of one Mr. L. James of the Miami Heat brought to mind the question of, "Who was (is) the greatest basketball player of all time?"

In my view, there are three philosophical approaches to answering that question: (a) Who was (or is) the best player (i.e., best skills), (b) who was the most valuable? and (c) Who was the most dominant?

There are different arguments one could make for a lot of different players.

Wilt Chamberlain's statistics are overwhelming, and I don't think there is any question that he was the most dominant player who ever lived. His scoring and rebounding were head and shoulders over anyone else who ever played the game. He voluntarily gave up his points when he moved to L.A. (who already had Gerry West and Elgin Baylor), and he led the league in assists while leading that team to a championship they had no hope of winning without him. He led three different teams to championships and record-breaking seasons. He could have played and dominated longer, but got caught up in a pissing match between the ABA and the NBA. On the downside, his shooting percentage was marginal - less than 50% - and one wonders whether a coach today would allow him to shoot as much, at 45% efficiency, when his shots generally took him out of the picture for rebounding. Also, he was a terrible foul shooter and could not dribble the ball. For those who say it's not possible for a 7'2" human to have these skills, there are proofs apenty that it is possible: Jabbar, Nowitsky, etc. Was he the most dominant court presence in the history of the game? People paid to come and see him play, regardless of what team he played for - and he did play for the Globetrotters, by the way.

Parenthetically, can you downgrade him because he was simply bigger and stronger than everyone else around him? When he played there were only a couple seven-footers in the league; now there is one on almost every team. Does this detract from his place in the Pantheon?

Michael Jordan was one of a kind. He was one of only a couple players in league history could take the ball in a crucial situation, when everyone in the whole arena knew he was going to get it, and score pretty much at will. Within the rules, there was not a single defensive player who could stop him when he set his mind to scoring a basket. He led his teams (I would say, mediocre teams) to multiple championships over a long period of time, with a couple-year hiatus while he played professional baseball - badly. Who could vote against his being the most highly skilled person ever to play the game?

Bill Russell was, by consensus, the cornerstone of the most dominant sports dynasty of his era. His statistics were good but not overwhelming, but his defensive contribution was not amenable to statistical measurement. On the downside, his skills were marginal, and like it or not, nobody ever came to the arena to watch him personally play. People came to see the Celtics, and he was not even the biggest attraction on the Celtics (Cousy). The other players I'm listing could fill an arena if they were teamed up with four white guys named, "Darrin."

Kareem typified excellence for a long period of time. Did everything well. Led his teams to championships. Scored a ton of points and got a ton of rebounds. Further, he seems to have been an outstanding human being. Has to be on the list.

Shaq. Was the most valuable player in the league for more than a decade. He was so far-and-away more dominant than the turds who were winning the award (Steve Nash?) that the award became little more than a joke. Won with three different teams. Literally, the only people on the floor who could keep him under control were the refs. If they decided to call him close he would have to restrain himself and couldn't dominate the game, but if they would let the teams play it was "lights out," "game over." Like Wilt, one could say that based on his "skills," if he were a mere 6'8" he would have been one of the best players at the Downtown Y.

Magic? Larry? Kobe? Cousy? Oscar? LeBron? George Fucking Mikan? Great players all, but not in the same category. Jordan was the best; Wilt was the most dominant; Russell might have been the most valuable, but if you look closely, MJ wins this one as well. Scotty Pippin? Without MJ playing on his team nobody would even remember his name.

And of course, Wilt claimed to have fucked 10,000 different women in his fortunately-truncated life, and that's definitely worth some sort of an award.

Opinions?

Not too much disagreement with what you write. Pippen said that Lebron could become the greatest player of all time (assuming he continues to improve and play at such a high level), replacing Michael Jordan in that regard, but that Jordan is and always will be a superior scorer. Kareem seems either like a cranky old man or an immature ex-jock by trying to insert himself in the discussion by arguing for Wilt (and since Kareem is better than Wilt, at least in Kareem's mind, Kareem is the best of all time).

Wilt's statistics are staggering, but they were easier to come by, not just because there were fewer big men in his time, but because the pace of the game was faster so more points were scored in general. In addition to more shots being taken, the percentage of shots made was lower so there were a lot more rebounds to be had. So it is hard to compare statistics from Wilt's time to the post-1970s game.

The problem with arguing Wilt or Shaq were the most dominant players is that they didn't win enough. Wilt was on just two championship teams, and one of those came after the Russell/Celtic era and he played a supporting (but important) role on the great 1971-72 Laker team. He had plenty of good talent on his other teams and if he was truly dominant, his teams should have won more. Shaq won three titles with the Lakers, who also had the best overall player in the league in Kobe Bryant. He was also on a title team with Miami, where Dwayne Wade dominated the playoffs. Again, if he were more dominant than Jordan, he should have won more titles -- he was on teams that had plenty of talent after all. While Shaq and Wilt had the ability to be more dominant than Jordan (and showed that potential at certain times), neither was actually close to as dominant.

If I were picking my greatest team of all time, I would not have Shaq, Wilt, Russell or Jabbar at center. I would pick Olajuwon who was a far more versatile player than any of them (and regularly outplayed Shaq and other top centers of his time), and would fit in better with Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Tim Duncan, or any other selection of top players at those positions.

In terms of largest positive impact on the sport and the world as a whole?

John Wooden

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In my opinion, and totally from a self-interested perspective .... Lauren Jackson!



If it wasn't for Lauren, the Hatch would never have considered basketball as a viable sport.
J

The Hen wrote:In my opinion, and totally from a self-interested perspective .... Lauren Jackson!



If it wasn't for Lauren, the Hatch would never have considered basketball as a viable sport.
J

She is Shiva! Four arms!

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rubato

John Wooden? Are you kidding? Most people have never heard of him.

What positive impact did he have on NCAA basketball? What is his legacy? What army of coaches have followed in his footsteps? Name one player who did not play for him who did anything differently as a result of John Wooden's influence?

You want to talk influence? Ervin "Magic" Johnson was personally responsible for the de facto repeal of the "palming" violation. He did it every time he bounced a ball in college and the NBA but didn't get called for it because he was an untouchable "star," and now the rule is dead letter law. No that's influence on the game.

Everyone knows who John Wooden is:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wooden
As a player, Wooden was the first to be named basketball All-American three times and he won a national championship at Purdue. Wooden was named a member of the Basketball Hall of Fame as a player (inducted in 1961) and as a coach (in 1973), the first person ever enshrined in both categories. Only Lenny Wilkens and Bill Sharman have since had the same honor.[5]

He was one of the most revered coaches[2] and was beloved by his former players, among them Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Bill Walton. Wooden was renowned for his short, simple inspirational messages to his players, including his "Pyramid of Success." These often were directed at how to be a success in life as well as in basketball.[2]

...

After college, Wooden spent several years playing professionally with the Indianapolis Kautskys[16][17] (later the Indianapolis Jets), Whiting Ciesar All-Americans,[17] and Hammond Ciesar All-Americans[17] while teaching and coaching in the high school ranks.[17] During one 46-game stretch he made 134 consecutive free throws.[16] He was named to the NBL's First Team for the 1937–38 season.

In 1942, during World War II, he joined the Navy. He served for nearly three years and left the service as a lieutenant.[4]

In 1961, he was enshrined in the Basketball Hall of Fame for his achievements as a player.[18]

...

Wooden's team repeated as national champions the following season before the 1966 squad fell briefly, finishing second in the conference. However, the Bruins' 1967 incarnation returned with a vengeance, reclaiming not only the conference title, but the national crown, and then retaining it every season but one until Wooden's retirement in 1975.

Wooden coached what would prove to be his final game in Pauley Pavilion on March 1, 1975, in a 93–59 victory over Stanford. Four weeks later, following a 75–74 overtime victory over Louisville in the 1975 NCAA Tournament semifinal game, Wooden announced that he would retire immediately after the championship game.[40] His legendary coaching career concluded triumphantly, as his team responded with a win over Kentucky to claim Wooden's first career coaching victory over the Wildcats and his unprecedented 10th national championship.

During his tenure with the Bruins, Wooden became known as the "Wizard of Westwood" (although he personally disdained the nickname)[38] and gained lasting fame with UCLA by winning 620 games in 27 seasons and 10 NCAA titles during his last 12 seasons, including seven in a row from 1967 to 1973.[3] His UCLA teams also had a record winning streak of 88 games[41][42] and four perfect 30–0 seasons.[3] They also won 38 straight games in NCAA Tournaments[3] and a record 98 straight home game wins at Pauley Pavilion. Wooden was named NCAA College Basketball's "Coach of the Year" in 1964, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972 and 1973. In 1967, he was named the Henry Iba Award USBWA College Basketball Coach of the Year. In 1972, he shared Sports Illustrated magazine's "Sportsman of the Year" award with Billie Jean King. He was named to the Basketball Hall of Fame as a coach in 1973,[43] becoming the first to be honored as both a player and a coach.[4][5]

"He never made more than $35,000 a year salary (not including camps and speaking engagements), including 1975, the year he won his 10th national championship, and never asked for a raise," wrote Rick Reilly of ESPN. He was given a Bruin powder blue Mercedes that season as a retirement gift.[44] According to his own writings, Wooden turned down an offer to coach the Los Angeles Lakers from owner Jack Kent Cooke that may have been ten times what UCLA was paying him. ... "

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