Coffee etiqette

[Gob]

A coffee trader says he is "striking a blow for basic manners" by refusing to serve any customer who places an order while talking on a mobile phone.



Darren Groom, 36, said he was "fed up" with people expecting him to "lip read" their order at his shop in Norwich.

He has now put up signs telling customers they will not be served while using a mobile phone.

Etiquette experts Debrett's said Mr Groom was "performing a public service".

Mr Groom, who sells coffee at his city centre shop and market stall, said the reaction to the signs had been very positive.

"We've had lots and lots of comments," he said. "People are saying how much they agree with it.

"A couple of years ago it became a real problem with people trying to lip read their order to us.

"In the shop we need to ask a few questions, like whether they are having it in or taking it away, whether they want whole milk or not, sugar or not.

"Also, when people come in we like to say 'hello'. It's nice if people respond to that.

"They should have the basic manners to converse with us."

Mr Groom runs his Little Red Roaster business with his wife, Kate, 29. He has had a coffee stall on Norwich Market for 10 years and opened the shop five years ago.

He said he understood people needed to use their mobile phones in modern life.

"We don't mind people having phones in the shop," he said.

"I have to answer my phone in the shop sometimes. It's a small business and we all need to take calls.

"It just a case of common sense really. We wanted to strike a blow for basic manners.

"We just got a little bit fed up with how it made us feel. We feel it's basic manners to not be talking to someone when you are ordering from us."

The printed sign has been placed at both the coffee shop, in Grove Road, and on the market stall.

It states: "Sorry we are unable to serve you if you are on the phone. Thank you."

Liz Wyse, of etiquette experts Debrett's, praised the "brave stand" taken by Mr Groom.

"This is one man battling against something that's happening everywhere," she said.

"It's rude to place an order while talking on a mobile phone. There's no doubt about it.

"You see it all the time. It's like saying to the person who you are dealing with that they are not as important as the person you are talking to on the phone.

"He is making quite a brave stand and I think he's performing a public service in teaching people about manners."

[BoSoxGal]

Score two for the good guys!

[Beer Sponge]

...and score zero for Gob spelling etiquette correctly!

[Gob]

Bummmer!

[Lord Jim]

This is this fellow's place of business, and as such he is perfectly free to place whatever rules regarding the ordering of his service he cares to....he could require all his customers to place their coffee orders using semifore, for all I care....

But as a general rule, I have very little sympathy for the cell phone nazis....

I have said for years, the self evidently fair rule for the use of cell phones is quite obvious....

Cell phone conversations should be permitted wherever "regular" conversation is permitted, and prohibited where it is not....

Therefore, public streets, stores and shopping centers, restaurants, public transportation, ball parks, etc., should be perfectly acceptable venues for cell phone conversation, as they are acceptable venues for conversation in general....

Movie theaters, plays, symphony concerts, libraries, houses of worship, etc., should be unacceptable places for cell phone conversation, as conversation in general is considered to be unacceptable....

If you don't like cell phone conversation being permitted in a place where ftf conversation is permitted, (public transportation for example) then I suggest you go about the task of convincing your community to prohibit all conversation in that venue.

And if the problem is "shouting", how about prohibiting "shouting" whether it's on a cell phone or not?

(BTW, this "shouting into cell phones" complaint in recent years has become pretty much a strawman; I have definitely noticed that with the improvement in the quality of the phones and the tower service, that nowadays about the only time I see someone "shouting" into a cell phone is when the general din of the noise where they are would require shouting even if you were trying to communicate with someone standing right next to you.)

But the cell phone nazi's I have the very least sympathy for, are the ones who whine and moan about people having cell phone conversations who are dining with other people at other tables in restaurants....

To these compulsive busy bodies, I say:

"Ya know what Mrs. Kravitz? Whether or not it's acceptable to talk on a cell phone while dining with another person, is entirely the business of those people, and none of yours. As Ann Landers would say, MYOB. And if you find their conversation so compelling that you can't tear yourself away from it, I might suggest that you find more engaging dining companions of your own..."

[Gob]

I have said for years, the self evidently fair rule for the use of cell phones is quite obvious....

Cell phone conversations should be permitted wherever "regular" conversation is permitted, and prohibited where it is not....

I couldn't disagree more Jim. Cell phone users in public places should observe the same rules as smokers, go outside and don't pollute the air with your crap.

[Lord Jim]

I couldn't disagree more Jim. Cell phone users in public places should observe the same rules as smokers, go outside and don't pollute the air with your crap.

I don't enjoy listening to some woman at the next table drone on endlessly with her dining companion about the problems she's having with her boy friend.

Why shouldn't she be required to take that "crap" outside?

[Lord Jim]

And the smoker comparison is silly; it's impossible to make even the tenuous health claims attached to second hand smoke about somebody merely talking into a phone...

[Gob]

I don't enjoy listening to some woman at the next table drone on endlessly with her dining companion about the problems she's having with her boy friend.

Why shouldn't she be required to take that "crap" outside?

She should.

And the smoker comparison is silly; it's impossible to make even the tenuous health claims attached to second hand smoke about somebody merely talking into a phone...

That's why I didn't do that.

[dales]

The world was a much better place before mobile phones and people could smoke after their dinner in a restaurant.

[alice]

This is this fellow's place of business, and as such he is perfectly free to place whatever rules regarding the ordering of his service he cares to....he could require all his customers to place their coffee orders using semifore, for all I care....

But as a general rule, I have very little sympathy for the cell phone nazis....

I have said for years, the self evidently fair rule for the use of cell phones is quite obvious....

Cell phone conversations should be permitted wherever "regular" conversation is permitted, and prohibited where it is not....

Therefore, public streets, stores and shopping centers, restaurants, public transportation, ball parks, etc., should be perfectly acceptable venues for cell phone conversation, as they are acceptable venues for conversation in general....

Movie theaters, plays, symphony concerts, libraries, houses of worship, etc., should be unacceptable places for cell phone conversation, as conversation in general is considered to be unacceptable....

If you don't like cell phone conversation being permitted in a place where ftf conversation is permitted, (public transportation for example) then I suggest you go about the task of convincing your community to prohibit all conversation in that venue.

And if the problem is "shouting", how about prohibiting "shouting" whether it's on a cell phone or not?

(BTW, this "shouting into cell phones" complaint in recent years has become pretty much a strawman; I have definitely noticed that with the improvement in the quality of the phones and the tower service, that nowadays about the only time I see someone "shouting" into a cell phone is when the general din of the noise where they are would require shouting even if you were trying to communicate with someone standing right next to you.)

But the cell phone nazi's I have the very least sympathy for, are the ones who whine and moan about people having cell phone conversations who are dining with other people at other tables in restaurants....

To these compulsive busy bodies, I say:

"Ya know what Mrs. Kravitz? Whether or not it's acceptable to talk on a cell phone while dining with another person, is entirely the business of those people, and none of yours. As Ann Landers would say, MYOB. And if you find their conversation so compelling that you can't tear yourself away from it, I might suggest that you find more engaging dining companions of your own..."

That's a good, sensible way of looking at it.

It also fits in with the stance the coffee man is making - when people arein line to be served in a shop, if they're in discussion - face-to-face - with another person, it is obvious manners to pause long enough to look at the store person and place their order, answer any queries, etc. But when on the mobile they often don't pause, and in fact I've seen phone users be quite rude to those who dare to 'interrupt' them to complete a business transaction.

One thing that does annoy me is when a person is having a face-to-face discussion with me, their friend, interrupts that discussion to answer their mobile, and then has a long animated discussion with the friend on the mobile. I grit my teeth and wear it, because I guess it's the modern way, but to me it makes the person on the phone seem more 'important' than the face-to-face person. I don't mind a quick chat on the phone, but it should be quick, and it should be acknowledged that you're busy and you'll catch up with the phone friend for a mkore detailed conversation later, when you're not already occupied. And using Lord JKim's way of thinking, that would be just as rude if you were having a conversation with a friend, then another friend walked up and you stopped mid-sentence with the first friend, and turned and had a 20 minute conversation with the second friend, completely ignoring friend one. Most normal people would realise how completely rude and ignorant that is, and yet those same people would regularly do it with their phones.

I have said for years, the self evidently fair rule for the use of cell phones is quite obvious....

Cell phone conversations should be permitted wherever "regular" conversation is permitted, and prohibited where it is not....

I couldn't disagree more Jim. Cell phone users in public places should observe the same rules as smokers, go outside and don't pollute the air with your crap.

I don't enjoy listening to some woman at the next table drone on endlessly with her dining companion about the problems she's having with her boy friend.

Why shouldn't she be required to take that "crap" outside?

She should.

.....

While it would be lovely to send every conversation that annoyed us 'outside', it simply isn't feasible. Conversation-wise, what annoys you may not annoy me. You and your friends may find your conversation extremely interesting - I and my table of companions may find it crap. Who are 'we' to have a say in you having to take your 'crap' outside? Who makes the decision which discussions are listenworthy and which are 'crap'?
And I do agree with Lord Jim that it would be the same with a mobile phone discussion.
Some people talk louder whether they're on the phone or not, some have annoying accents or mannerisms, or conversations about things we don't really want to hear about. That happens whether it's face-to-face or on a mobile. And I will put up with another person's phone conversation in places where I can also freely speak - either on the phone or face-to-face. As long as they follow the rules of social etiquette that apply in face-to-face interactions - that includes treating shop people like real human beings.

I hope that made sense - I can't think a word ahead at the moment and had to fix a thousand typo's in this short note!!

[MajGenl.Meade]

We were playing cards with a couple from church one night and my cell phone rang. I noted that it was Paul calling and I knew it was nothing urgent and I could call him later - so I didn't answer and we carried on playing and chatting pleasantly. Next my wife's phone rang - Paul trying her line. She ignored it and we carried on playing and chatting pleasantly. Then Tokkie's phone rang - and she answered it and said "Yes, Paul - they are here" and handed me the phone. Paul said "I was actually looking for Lynn" (my wife that is) so I replied "I'll have her call you" and disconnected.

Whose is the fox paw here? Is it rude to not answer? Is it rude to over-ride the first refusals to answer and then rat out one's card-playing buddies? Is it rude to reject the caller ftf (so to speak) and cut the bugger off?

I don't care
Meade

[Lord Jim]

Alice, I don't see anything to disagree with in your post.

It also fits in with the stance the coffee man is making - when people arein line to be served in a shop, if they're in discussion - face-to-face - with another person, it is obvious manners to pause long enough to look at the store person and place their order, answer any queries, etc. But when on the mobile they often don't pause, and in fact I've seen phone users be quite rude to those who dare to 'interrupt' them to complete a business transaction.

A person who has reached the front of the line who is doing anything else, (be it talking on a cell phone, typing on a black berry or tying their shoe) other than completing that transaction is being extremely rude, not just to the order taker but even more so to those waiting line behind the oaf...

In that case, a real and tangible inconvenience exists...(My personal pet peeve are the old farts who know well in advance that they are going to be paying with a check at the grocery store and don't even bother to pull out their checkbook and start filling out their check until they've not only reached the from of the line, but their order has been totaled and bagged... )

One thing that does annoy me is when a person is having a face-to-face discussion with me, their friend, interrupts that discussion to answer their mobile, and then has a long animated discussion with the friend on the mobile.

In that situation, I would say that you have every right to complain. You are a direct party to that interchange. A good way to do it might be after the conversation is concluded to say something like, "it's a shame you had to take that call and we weren't able to spend more time together" (with a good friend, that should get the message across; they probably weren't even intending to be rude)

People have every right to be ticked off if somebody they are with is ignoring them, for whatever reason. What's acceptable and not acceptable in those situations is for them to work out.

[BoSoxGal]

What's your beef then, LJ? The guy isn't banning cell phones wholesale; he's refusing to serve anyone who is talking on the phone while placing an order. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The other night I went out to have a nice restaurant meal. Though I was sitting alone with a book and only three other tables in the place were occupied, a couple with a toddler chose the booth next to mine. The rest of my meal was punctuated by a screeching brat repeatedly trying to climb over the seat back into my booth, while 'parental' unit held a very loud conversation on the cell, while other 'parental' unit ignored them both.

It's getting so it's not worth going out anymore.

[Crackpot]

the problem with toddlers is they just don't shut up. you just have to swallow your embarrassment and accept it.

Did they choose the booth or were they assigned? I've noticed the almighty waitress rotation often defies common sense when placing people with small children in a restaurant. I'm just happy the local brewpub is child friendly.

[BoSoxGal]

They chose the booth.

And really, there was a time when children too young to behave weren't brought out to ruin the meals of others. There was also a time when a bare minimum effort of parenting was expended to engage the child in an effort to bring the behavior in line.

That time has passed and at present it seems commonly accepted that children shall screech and run wild in public, including in dining establishments where waitrons carry heavy trays loaded with hot food, and no breeder shall raise a finger to intervene.


This is a threadjack, which I would be happy to take elsewhere.

[Joe Guy]

But as a general rule, I have very little sympathy for the cell phone nazis....

It's not sympathy us nazis want, Jim. It's a display of common courtesy and the character & ability to realize that every phone call is not an emergency when out in public.

Cell phone conversations should be permitted wherever "regular" conversation is permitted, and prohibited where it is not....

'Uh... could you hold off for a second with that anesthetic Mr anesthesiologist? I have to take a call.' (the anesthesiologist always wants to hear from you & permits normal conversation)

Therefore, public streets, stores and shopping centers, restaurants, public transportation, ball parks, etc., should be perfectly acceptable venues for cell phone conversation, as they are acceptable venues for conversation in general....

It's perfectly legal to be rude in most public venues, but not acceptable, in my opinion.

If the phone caller or phone callee can manage to step aside and keep the conversation between him and the other person, that would be fine. But those are the people I never see or hear and they don't bother me.

And if the problem is "shouting", how about prohibiting "shouting" whether it's on a cell phone or not?

In most everyday places (grocery stores, coffee shops, and other places of business) "shouting" IS prohibited, or at least not tolerated.

(BTW, this "shouting into cell phones" complaint in recent years has become pretty much a strawman; .....about the only time I see someone "shouting" into a cell phone is when the general din of the noise where they are would require shouting even if you were trying to communicate with someone standing right next to you.)

Then you must live in a much more civil world than most of us, LJ... I see it happen too often.

But the cell phone nazi's I have the very least sympathy for, are the ones who whine and moan about people having cell phone conversations who are dining with other people at other tables in restaurants....

I am a nazi, then. I will always notice, and sometimes point out to others, when I see other people being rude, regardless of whether or not they are with me.

To these compulsive busy bodies, I say:

.....Whether or not it's acceptable to talk on a cell phone while dining with another person, is entirely the business of those people, and none of yours. As Ann Landers would say, MYOB. And if you find their conversation so compelling that you can't tear yourself away from it, I might suggest that you find more engaging dining companions of your own..."

Other people's conversations only bother me when I can't help but hear them, especially when they are louder than my own.

Of course that doesn't happen to you, but I'm just saying that it still happens beyond the gates of Eden.....

[Joe Guy]

(My personal pet peeve are the old farts who know well in advance that they are going to be paying with a check at the grocery store and don't even bother to pull out their checkbook and start filling out their check until they've not only reached the from of the line, but their order has been totaled and bagged... )

Young farts move much quicker than old farts, Jim. It used to bother me much more until I saw my own mother getting older and slower. For a lot of those old farts it may be the only time they get out during the day, or maybe even the week.

But if a young fart did that, I'd probably smack him/her on the head with a can of Ensure.

[Crackpot]

Hey I'm sure he knows that he's inluded in that group.

[dales]

Who writes cheques anymore?