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A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:54 pm
by Gob
When I was a baby, my non-biological mother, Donna, would carry me on her hip on outings and strangers would invariably come up to us, assuming that Donna was my biological mother.

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“What a cute baby!”, they’d beam. “Yes, we’re very proud of her,” Donna would reply, or words to that effect. Then noting that I looked Japanese and Donna didn’t, they’d remark, “She must take after her father”, to which Donna would smoothly answer, “oh no, she has a strong resemblance to her mother”. Even after many long seconds passed, the confused looks rarely resolved into a “oh they’re lesbian parents” realisation.

It’s extraordinary just how much fun one can have in the company of other people’s assumptions.

As the child of same-sex parents, I stopped counting how many times I was asked: “Do you miss not having a father?” How can you miss ­­­something you’ve have never had? Even now, if someone asked me that question, I’d just as likely reply, “Do you miss not having two mothers?”

Somehow it seems like the wrong question. A better question might be:

What is a father, after all? And what exactly have I missed without one? I mean, we’re not talking about cabbages here, are we?


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Maybe a father would’ve taught me to be a bit more gruff and strong, rough-and-tumble; or perhaps he would’ve taken me out and spoiled me every now and then with ice cream. Maybe dads tell good bedtime stories and carry you on their shoulders at the beach (assuming he is the strongest in the family). A dad would have taken me fishing, and taught me how to cut a fish‘s throat or maybe get us lost on camping adventures (because of course mums hate that outdoor stuff).


Maybe there is an advantage to having someone around the place that wears pants all the time and who takes masculine short hair-styles in their stride. Would I be better at throwing and catching balls if I had a dad? Or maybe dad would’ve made sure my boyfriend was a good bloke before we went on a date. And who knows, maybe he would’ve even instilled his own, good work ethic! Or maybe not.

I have never in my life seen Donna wear a dress, and she has always styled a short curls. So that’s two down. Donna has taught me to fish… well, we go and sit out on the rocks and wait, usually in the wrong place, at the wrong tide, and argue endlessly about who’s fault it is that the fish aren’t biting. When I brought my first boyfriend home I thought Donna was going to boot him out. She was that tense and watchful, one could be excused for thinking she had morphed into the perfect, overly protective father.

And Liz, my biological mother, she’s great at wrestling, not to mention tickling, torture and trampoline, which was a favorite game of mine growing up. Out of the two, she is my beach ride ‘shoulders’ of choice and would always cave to the after-school ‘Golden Gaytime’. Liz works harder and is more passionate about her work than almost anyone I know and makes ace vegetarian lasagna.

Kids need a mother and a father only so long as we keep those roles quarantined and artificially separated into rigid, airtight compartments. In this day and age it is safe to say that dads have resilience that enables them to do what mums do, and vice versa for mums. As I have grown older, I have come to see the wisdom of men like my uncle who was a stay-at-home dad, and always loved to do the cooking.

Fortunately, in my house, family is not defined by biology or gender stereotypes. I have learned this from two mothers that have taught me that women can be whatever they want to be, and that there are countless, exciting and powerful ways to ‘do’ femininity.

Whatever prejudices and misunderstandings gather around the same-sex family debate, one of the sustaining influences of such intolerance is a scarcity of stories. With this in mind, I got together with a friend, Charlotte Mclellan and we began making a film Gayby Baby - the first feature length documentary on this topic.

For me, family is the community you create. It lives in the simplest acts, like laughing at the dinner table, or being pushed up to the sky on a swing so that you think you know what it means to fly. It is being forced to do the washing up, crying because you don’t want to go to bed, and the frustration of having your nose blown for you.

In the end, I guess the only real downside to not having a father is having to answer lots of questions about not having a father.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:39 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Same as having two fathers and not having a mother.

While I am not going to think to hard about it right now, I would imagine there are things each sex brings to a childs upbringing. But are they just things each opposite sex were taught because of their sex? I'm 54yo so in my childhood, women took care of house and home (childcare, cooking, cleaning, ect), and men brought home the bacon and did the heavy lifting (car repairs, house repairs, remodeling, etc).
Do we all need htat mix? I don't know, I know plenty of people who were brought up in the traditional family and do not have that mix.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:09 pm
by dgs49
" I guess the only real downside to not having a father is having to answer lots of questions about not having a father."

But then, she has no fucking idea what it would have been like to be raised in a traditional family, so she is in NO POSITION to judge. She seems to have made a reasonably good adjustment, but one can say the same thing about people who have disabilities, or were raised by welfare queens, or raised by wolves, for that matter.

If I were to buy a dog, knowing that I leave the house at 0700 every morning and don't get home untill 1900, many animal lovers would say (with some justification) that it was selfish of me to buy a dog, knowing that I can't provide it with the quantity of attention that a domestic pet should have.

We have thousands of years of history and volumes of sociology and psychology texts that basically conclude that the best environment for a child to be raised in is an intact, loving, traditional home. Consider some U.S. demographics for a moment. Look at the horrific statistics that surround the various minority communities (crime, dropout rates, drug abuse, illegitimacy, etc), and how they dramatically improve when you limit the population to those who have been raised in intact, traditional, two parent homes.

Heather may end up being OK with two mommies, and god bless them if they rescue Heather from a disfunctional home, but for two women to bring a baby into their world intentionally is an act of selfishness. And I pity the poor bastard if he is a boy. The child may not realize that its world is fucked up for a while - people adapt, but it's not a nice thing to do.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:56 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
I will always believe in the "someone home" household. By that I mean, during the childs early years, one of the two parents should be home. My wife and I struggled during those years but we survived while she did not work and when they went off to school, she got a job that was 9am til 2pm so she was home. We scrimped, we even saved.

Now I am not making less of those who actually need two people to work to pay the mortgage but there were many a time I saw brand nes SUV's in the parking lot and lining up to pick up the kids at school functions when I was driving a 1972 dodge dart. Prioroities have become skewed. Right now I am driving a 2002 PT Cruiser (love the car) wiht 110000 miles on it. It still runs and while it does need shocks and struts (which I will be putting in it sometime soon) I do not need a new car and probably wouldn't buy one if I did. And forget about leasing (basically borrowing a car for three years while you give away your money to drive it).

Suck it up America. I don't care if your mommy's are daddy's or if your daddy's are mommy's or if you happen to have a mommy and a daddy. Get your kids heads straight, stand up and be productive and stop blaming everything outside yourself for your own problems.

Sorry for the rant.
:cry:

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:11 pm
by Gob
Dave, watch out for meteorites mate.

"On the basis of a remarkably consistent body of research on lesbian and gay parents and their children, the American Psychological Association and other health, professional, and scientific organizations have concluded that there is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation," the APA announced on its website earlier this week. "That is, lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children. This body of research has shown that the adjustment, development, and psychological well-being of children are unrelated to parental sexual orientation and that the children of lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those of heterosexual parents to flourish."

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:14 pm
by Scooter
Since when has Dave let the facts get in the way of his antediluvian opinions.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:30 pm
by Sean
This is my favourite bit...
dgs49 wrote: But then, she has no fucking idea what it would have been like to be raised in a traditional family, so she is in NO POSITION to judge.
...and neither are you Dave!

But yet you do...

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:14 pm
by Guinevere
In Dave's world, women stay at home with their 3.2 children, wear aprons all day cooking and cleaning, then appear magically at the door in a pretty dress and pearls to hand their man his martini and take his hat and coat when he arrives home from work, sex only happens between married men and women for the purposes of procreation, everyone is a white Catholic and goes to church ('cept for the household help, but they aren't really "people" anyway), and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are real.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:13 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Guinevere wrote:In Dave's world, women stay at home with their 3.2 children, wear aprons all day cooking and cleaning, then appear magically at the door in a pretty dress and pearls to hand their man his martini and take his hat and coat when he arrives home from work, sex only happens between married men and women for the purposes of procreation, everyone is a white Catholic and goes to church ('cept for the household help, but they aren't really "people" anyway), and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are real.
Are you saying that is not real!?!?!?!?!?! SANTA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?? EASTER BUNNY?!?!?!?!?!?! MARTINI!?!?!?!?!?!?
Well now my Christmas is ruined. I hope you are happy.
:nana

well ok, I never got a martinin when I got home, I had had enough before I got home. :loon

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:26 pm
by Joe Guy
I'm waiting for the post in which Dave attacks the American Psychological Association and other health, professional, and scientific organizations.

Or attacks whoever wrote that the American Psychological Association and other health, professional, and scientific organizations came to their conclusion.

Or attacks me for writing that I'm waiting for the post in which Dave attacks the American Psychological Association and other health, professional, and scientific organizations.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:00 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Not for anything, but my cousin is a psycologist (Phd), as is my niece and a good friend of mine is a psychiatrist. All are batshit crazy. :loon

I wouldn't go to them for any mental problem as I really believe I come out worse than I already am.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:50 pm
by Gob
Heh, what Oldr' said.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:54 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Gob wrote:Heh, what Oldr' said.
Even those in the field know they are crazy

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:46 pm
by Econoline
http://www.popcrunch.com/20-stupid-misc ... img=144769
Here’s a partial list of just some — SOME — of the animals which exhibit same sex attraction/mating/cuddling/whatever. Bears, giraffes, elephants, rats, lions, cats, cheetahs, dolphins, dogs, chicken, emu, penguins, frogs, lizards, rattlesnakes, black swans, gulls, ibises, vultures, pigeons, bonobos (though they’ll fuck anything), sheep, macaques, and so on and so forth. There are plenty more, and I haven’t even got into insects. If you don’t like gay people, that’s on you. Just don’t try and blame it as being “unnatural” when nature is full of it.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:28 pm
by dgs49
Gobster, do you believe everything you read? Jesus fuck!

How large is the population on which the "American Psychological Association" (note closely the name) has based its conclusions? How were the data collected? Self reported? How many intact gay and/or lesbian "families" have been in existence long enough for their progeny to have reached adulthood?

Do you have any idea how "sampling" takes place?

How in the FUCK could you read that paragraph and take it seriously? Are you that gullible?

Obviously, if you have a lesbian couple that has been together for a substantial amount of time, has significant social and financial resources, and decides to have a GIRL baby, that baby will have a home environment that is at least as "enriched" as the "average" American household.

But that is a bullshit comparison. It is taking a carefully selected group on one side and comparing it with a large, diverse population on the other. And that is how these "studies" have been developed. Believe me, I've read them. The data from G&L households is SELF REPORTED by those people who choose to participate. What results do you expect?

Do you want to do a worthwhile comparison (for Guin's benefit)? Compare (a) intact traditional households where the wife is a stay-at-home mother, and (b) intact households where the children are primarily raised by PAID THIRD PARTIES until they are old enough to be left at home alone after school, unattended, until the working parents come home. Control for household income.

Then we'll talk. You won't like the results.

The issue is, what is the ideal environment in which to raise a kid? It's no secret. Everybody knows what it is, but most people just don't give a shit. They want what they want, and if having a kid is part of the desired package, then the kid's welfare be damned, I want what I want. (c.f. "Murphy Brown," the poster child for irresponsible, selfish reproduction).

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:47 pm
by Big RR
Everyone knows? I don't--there's no one size fits all solution to child rearing. But I have no doubt there are many who think they know what it takes to raise other people's children.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:49 pm
by Guinevere
Exactly right, BigRR.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:46 pm
by Gob
dgs49 wrote:Gobster, do you believe everything you read? Jesus fuck!

No, but I believe a report from the American Psychological association trumps your report from ...errrmmm...... you.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:08 am
by Scooter
Once again, the facts completely demolish Dave's preconceived opinion, therefore his opinion must be right.

Re: A Gayby (for Dave)

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:16 pm
by dgs49
"How many intact gay and/or lesbian "families" have been in existence long enough for their progeny to have reached adulthood?"

The results speak for themselves. If you accept this research without a fucking tablespoon of salt, you are an idiot.