A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disloyal

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
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Lord Jim
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Lord Jim »

American Catholics torture people? I had not heard.
Well, then you should see the rack I have in my basement...

All of us American Catholics have them...

But I've added an extra feature...

I make the heretics listen to another verse of Leonard Cohen "singing" Suzanne with every crank of the wheel...

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Econoline
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Econoline »

The point of the OP wasn't that there are similar features in Catholicism and Islam: it was that xenophobia has caused and continues to cause misinformation, exaggeration and fear to run rampant in people's perceptions of the "other". Do I really have to point out the widespread stereotypes of the Italians' and Irish's propensity for violence that colored the "real" Americans' opinions of Catholics? (Hell, as an Italian-American--from Chicago, no less!--myself, I'm still annoyed by the stereotypes that persist to this day.) How much of what we "know" about "*ALL* Muslims" will in 100 years seem as silly and uninformed as what many Americans "knew" about "all Papists" 100 years ago?

Please note, however, that *NOTHING* I have said precludes going after Da'esh, or Boko Haram, or the IRA, or the Mafia for crimes that they have actually committed--as opposed to going after all Catholics or all Muslims for crimes committed by a small minority of their co-religionists.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

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kristina
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by kristina »

Lord Jim wrote:
American Catholics torture people? I had not heard.
Well, then you should see the rack I have in my basement...

All of us American Catholics have them...

But I've added an extra feature...

I make the heretics listen to another verse of Leonard Cohen "singing" Suzanne with every crank of the wheel...

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Now that is some serious torture.

Big RR
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Big RR »

Econoline wrote:The point of the OP wasn't that there are similar features in Catholicism and Islam: it was that xenophobia has caused and continues to cause misinformation, exaggeration and fear to run rampant in people's perceptions of the "other". Do I really have to point out the widespread stereotypes of the Italians' and Irish's propensity for violence that colored the "real" Americans' opinions of Catholics? (Hell, as an Italian-American--from Chicago, no less!--myself, I'm still annoyed by the stereotypes that persist to this day.) How much of what we "know" about "*ALL* Muslims" will in 100 years seem as silly and uninformed as what many Americans "knew" about "all Papists" 100 years ago?

Please note, however, that *NOTHING* I have said precludes going after Da'esh, or Boko Haram, or the IRA, or the Mafia for crimes that they have actually committed--as opposed to going after all Catholics or all Muslims for crimes committed by a small minority of their co-religionists.
:ok

Fafhrd
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Fafhrd »

One thing Catholics ain't is heretics. All the rest of us are heretics, to their way of thought. After all (unless you happen to be one of the Orthodox Christian faiths), they were there for about 1500 years, first. If you're Orthodox, of course, you may be right.

Big RR
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Big RR »

Of course the catholic faith did change considerably over those 1500 years, prompting the schism with the orthodox churches and the protestant reformation among other splits, heresies, and heterodox beliefs. Any resemblance to the original Christian church is purely coincidental.

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Gob
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Gob »

Religion, it's a bag of shite basically, isn't it.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

No
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Gob
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Gob »

Oh, ok.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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RayThom
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by RayThom »

But it is a bag of something, though.
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“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

THBR
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by THBR »

People also forget the LARGE Irish incoming population in the 1840s/1850s, which led to the attitude (recorded in a couple of memorable stories in Roughing It (Mark Twain) of "No Irish Need Apply". and "Dogs and Irishmen not allowed". People also forget that this was followed by such large waves of Italian and Eastern European immigrants that in the 1920s there were acts of Congress which effectively CUT OFF those immigrants. Thank the Lord my grandparents made it here before that.

In one case, so far before that that my great-grandfather was a policeman in Youngstown Ohio at the same time that he was an Orthodox Jew. I would LOVE to know how that worked ... That was an age when Eastern European Jews ran FROM policemen -- they didn't BECOME policemen!

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Lord Jim
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Lord Jim »

Gob wrote:Religion, it's a bag of shite basically, isn't it.
MajGenl.Meade wrote:No
Gob wrote:Oh, ok.
Well, I'm glad to see that's finally settled... :ok
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Joe Guy
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Joe Guy »

Look into my eyes... You are getting sleepy....

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Lord Jim
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Lord Jim »

People also forget the LARGE Irish incoming population in the 1840s/1850s, which led to the attitude (recorded in a couple of memorable stories in Roughing It (Mark Twain) of "No Irish Need Apply". and "Dogs and Irishmen not allowed".
Welcome Hip Bob :ok

Interesting evolution on the Irish experience...

When they first arrived they were so frequently arrested, (generally for something to do with drunken brawling... 8-)) that the wagons used to cart them off to jail became known as "Paddy Wagons"....

Within a few decades they became so numerous on big city police departments, that the Irish cop became an ingrained stereotype...

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Jarlaxle
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Jarlaxle »

Big RR wrote:For sheer torture, go to an orthodox catholic church weeding--they last forever, incorporate annoying chants and horrible incense, and (at least for the ones I attended) last for around 90 minutes; most of the RC weddings I've gone to last about a half an hour.
Catholics use incense at funerals...and WOW, is it foul.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

dgs49
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by dgs49 »

Ahem...getting back to the subject of the thread...Islam is not a religion in the sense that Americans think of religion. We consider a religion to be a set of beliefs, an organization with buildings, real estate, a cadre of clergy or some sort, and believers. We pre-suppose that religious believers accept the separation of church and state, and the subordination of esoteric religious beliefs and practices to the laws of the state where they conflict.

Islam ain't like that. Islam, by core belief, mandates that government be subject to not only the tenets of Islam, but also to its spiritual leaders. This is why western companies are so reluctant to invest in Islamic states: any contract can be tossed out by an Imam who thinks it is unfair or it conflicts with the Holy Quran. Islam is a religion that sanctions female genital mutilation, subordination of women, physical mutilation for crimes/sins, slavery, and other practices incompatible with American laws and values. And the beliefs of Muslims do not evaporate when they cross national borders; just ask the Brits and the French, who are dealing with outlaw "Sharia Courts," sexual slavery and an epidemic of rapes in their own territories.

There are many Muslim Americans and would-be immigrants who are willing to abandon these Islamic mandates - perhaps they are the vast majority - but to simply treat Muslim applicants the same as adherents to other religions is folly. Islam is fundamentally different from any religion significantly represented in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBpmPX ... U0SEa35HFT

Big RR
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by Big RR »

We pre-suppose that religious believers accept the separation of church and state, and the subordination of esoteric religious beliefs and practices to the laws of the state where they conflict.
I think you'd find a lot of religious persons, especially fundamentalist Christians in the bible belt, who'd disagree. as for your points re religion, there are many non islamic religions that have endorsed and/or tolerated much of the same thing you accuse islam of, from subordination of women to slavery; and many religions have their own courts as well which will deal with civil issues such as divorce and other issues; in no western countries is anyone mandated to use those courts (including sharia courts) if they choose not to. And as for rape, there is plenty of rape in non islamic countries, it's hardly an invention of in islam (nor is it condoned).

dgs49
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Re: A foreign religion, alien to the US, and inherently disl

Post by dgs49 »

How many people professing ANY religion today use that religion to justify killing non-believers - and even people who profess another version of their own religion? MASSIVELY, and not just occasionally? How many religions profess anything resembling that dehumanizing of women, criminalization of homosexuals, punishment of "infidels," and so on that Islam does?

The incidence of rape among Muslims in Europe is many, many times the rate among ethnic natives of Europe. And as for what we would call "statutory rape," where the victim is incapable of granting consent due to age, it is infinitely higher.

Islam is not just another "religion" and should not be treated as such by Western immigration authorities.

Muslims are big on "tolerance" when they are in the minority, but looking at countries where they are in the majority...not so much. In this single regard, we should emulate them.

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