Those who call themselves Christians

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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Big RR » Wed May 15, 2019 1:04 pm

I agree it's an over generalization, though I don't see it as bigotry--more as pointing out the irony that some who claim to follow the Prince of Peace commit, applaud, or endorse violence in his name. Indeed, I think you have agreed that this is something that Christians should distance themselves from.

Yes, there are haters and bigots who lump everyone together and tar them with their same brush, but not all who point out hypocrisy are haters anymore than someone who conedemns something like Khomeini's fatwa against Rushdie hates all moslems. And Christians can and do make a difference--at the end of April I was part of a group of moslems, christians, jews, and others (some of whom were probably of no specificreligion) who joined together in a march to show solidarity and to protest the violence seeking to divide people rather than unite them. We have a lot more in common than not, and can live with each other and without that hatred.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Wed May 15, 2019 1:30 pm

I'd accept "More Christian than some Christians" (altho' so-called Christians is more accurate). Perhaps even "many" instead of "some".

But it's not an accident that the quote is "any Christian". It's a blanket condemnation and a lie. You'd have no problem recognizing it and calling it what it is under other circumstances than "Christian".

Applause for your ecumenical + non-religious walk. Human first, all else is detail.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Big RR » Wed May 15, 2019 1:40 pm

Actually, the saddest thing about that walk and rally/prayer vigil was the elevated police presence along the way. There was a serious concern among the local authorities that there might be troubles--this in a fairly bland northeast suburban area. When I marched in 2002 to protest the action in Iraq, and when I participated in many other protests (even during the Vietnam war), I never saw this much police presence. It could have been an overreaction, but it's sad to think that a peaceful ecumenical assembly like this could even be imagined to spark violence; then again, maybe that's why we have to have them.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Wed May 15, 2019 2:27 pm

:( :ok
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Scooter » Wed May 15, 2019 4:22 pm

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White privilege is a thing.

What goes on in a woman's uterus is none of your fucking business.

Equal rights for others does not mean less rights for you. It's not pie.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Scooter » Wed May 15, 2019 4:25 pm

Image
White privilege is a thing.

What goes on in a woman's uterus is none of your fucking business.

Equal rights for others does not mean less rights for you. It's not pie.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby ex-khobar Andy » Wed May 15, 2019 5:49 pm

Meade, I'm not following your argument:

One only has to compare the treatment of the Sri Lankan massacres and those in New Zealand to see the latter at work. The one is noted while the second produces acres of angst from the haters.


All have seen here is utter horror at both the Sri Lanka and NZ massacres. And I follow on line major US and UK news sources.

What am I missing?
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby rubato » Thu May 16, 2019 2:37 am

Scooter wrote: "...

High overhead charities like the Red Cross are a stickier issue that probably has a somewhat different solution. In Canada we have the 80% rule, whereby 80% of the amount of donations eligible for tax receipts must be spent directly on charitable activities. It's not a perfect fix, because revenues from other sources not eligible for tax receipts (like government grants and fundraising) can skew the numbers and allow for higher spending on overhead.


Many domestic charities, like Planned Parenthood which I support, have the disadvantage of being very "professionalized" so that staff expect relatively high salaries and there is high overhead. This is more descriptive than critical because they deserve a decent living. Because of this I give more to international groups operating in third world countries who are much more financially efficient in improving people's lives per dollar spent. $50 to THAF (Tropical Health Alliance Foundation) cures one person of blindness from cataracts and frees a child who was taken out of school to lead the blind person around. Two lives are saved. That being the case I give $1,500 yr to planned parenthood and $11,500 yr to THAF. Dr Larry Thomas pays 100% of the overhead costs for THAF so that 100% of donations go to programmatic activities. And Dr Samuel Bora (an Ethiopian ophthalmologist) does the surgeries.

I also support Project Mercy which you can research on your own. It was started by Marta Gabre-Tsadick, an acquaintance of my mother, and if Christians were more like her (or Larry Thomas and Samuel Bora) I would have a much better impression of the species than their behavior has earned them.

yrs,
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Thu May 16, 2019 6:36 am

Andy, I was thinking of the difference between attitudes, not the reporting of facts. "Anti-Moslem outrage" is a very popular cry while "Anti-Christian outrage" is rarely heard. And I was thinking more locally - not meaning South Africa.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Scooter » Thu May 16, 2019 6:20 pm

Image

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White privilege is a thing.

What goes on in a woman's uterus is none of your fucking business.

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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Fri May 17, 2019 6:54 am

The concertina-wire one was funny. The rest, just the usual smear against an entire group characterizing them as all being at the same level as the worst of those who claim membership. Bigotry- that's the word.

Obviously if a cartoon was published that asked, "How many blacks were shot by cops today" with the answer "Not enough", everyone on this board (well except perhaps 2) would be pouring vitriol on such a sentiment. But some bigots are more equal than other bigots

So it goes.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Lord Jim » Fri May 17, 2019 11:52 am

if a cartoon was published that asked, "How many blacks were shot by cops today" with the answer "Not enough", everyone on this board (well except perhaps 2) would be pouring vitriol on such a sentiment.


That's a valid point...

Making broad, sweeping, negative generalizations about an entire group of people is pretty much the defining characteristic of bigotry...

It's the kind of thing lib frequently does around here...(particularly when he's talking about "liberals"...)
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Scooter » Fri May 17, 2019 11:58 am

Oh please, it's not ALL Christians who are trying to dismantle the separation of church and state, or who belong to/support the FRC, or who use their faith to persecute others and then whine when those others fight back, nor do any of those cartoons suggest that it is.

If you see yourself being accused in any of those, perhaps you need to ask yourself why.
White privilege is a thing.

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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Crackpot » Fri May 17, 2019 12:15 pm

Meade. Actually I would only apply that to the lion one. The rest raise valid issues. I really can’t see how you view an attack on the Family Research Council as an attack on all of Christianity
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Lord Jim » Fri May 17, 2019 12:28 pm

Actually I would only apply that to the lion one


I agree with that, (which is the one that Meade was referencing in his cop/black analogy that I was responding to...the other cartoons seem to comment on behaviors ; I don't see them as attacks on all Christians)

However, since I do fall into the category of "any Christian" I did see myself referenced in this :

More Christian than any Christian:
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Burning Petard » Fri May 17, 2019 12:44 pm

Meade, I can only tell you what happens at my church. We pay a sewer tax, which is based on the amount of water the church building takes in from a private water company (Artesian Water) which we also pay for. We pay a 'contribution' to a local volunteer fire company for fire protection and ambulance service. Within my memory of about 40 years, we have used the ambulance service once for a person who was in severe insulin shock from poorly controlled type II diabetes combined with alcoholism. We pay for utilities of water and electricity and phone at the same rate, including taxes, as any business. We pay outrageous fees for banking services to Wells Fargo like any business We do not pay any staff or ministers or provide any housing for such. This is all done by volunteers. We currently use about 30% of the building for storage and distribution of clothing and food to anyone who shows up for it--provided they have some indication that they live in our zip code. All of it is given by members and friends who support our effort. We have an average sunday morning attendance of about 25.

Yes, we pay no property tax--local or state. All cash income is from individuals. All cash income and expenditures are publicly listed on a quarterly and annual report posted on the bulletin board just inside our entrance.

snailgate.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Big RR » Fri May 17, 2019 1:21 pm

BP--the point I was making is that the churches receive all the municipal and county (and often state )services for free, while others are taxed for them. These include police, road maintenance and snow removal, schools (you don't have a full time minister with children living in a tax free manse, other churches do) and access to courts. some areas also include fire protection, garbage, and sewer as part of the tax bill. The other businesses and residents pay property taxes for these services which the church gets for free (I am not sure whether other charitable and/or non profits are exempt from such taxation).

Add to this that the magnitude of exemption is often unrelated to the number of people in the congregation. I once went to see an organist we were thinking of hiring who played in a big church in a very depressed city (Passaic, NJ); the church took up two entire city blocks--one for the church, one across the street for the educational building and offices as well as the ministers residence. The congregation was less than 20 people, and from what I heard, that was the usual attendance. I honestly don't know how it supports itself--Passaic was once an affluent area (as this giant church showed) so maybe they have some sort of an investment fund they are drawing on (and the church isn't in that good shape), but the city of Passaic is losing a lot of tax revenue so these 20 or so people can go to the church. And driving through the town I saw at least 4 other churches almost as big. And that is a problem that should be addressed--these churches are receiving the services for free and depleting local and county coffers of tax revenue which would otherwise be received. Should there at least be some sort of tax? I think so, but it would be difficult to hammer out exactly how much and how these taxes should be assessed, and therein lies the problem.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Fri May 17, 2019 3:06 pm

Scooter wrote:Oh please, it's not ALL Christians who are trying to dismantle the separation of church and state, or who belong to/support the FRC, or who use their faith to persecute others and then whine when those others fight back, nor do any of those cartoons suggest that it is.

If you see yourself being accused in any of those, perhaps you need to ask yourself why.


Cartoon 1: a man with a cross hitting an atheist; the atheist seizes the cross, hits back and the first man cries foul. I assume that the atheist stands for all atheists and the cross symbolizes the Christian faith

Cartoon 2: Church members break down the wall between church and state but then whine that the state better not interfere with the church. Church members have the same right to agitate lawfully for new or changes to legislation, just as do non-church members. That is not "interfering with the state". IIRC the ACLU has helped protect religion (of all kinds) from state interference. The cartoon of course stands for all churches and does not differentiate between individuals. Replace the church with a mosque and the hole in the wall with an IED and the love-birds would be singing a different song

Cartoon 3: Family Research Council. Don't really know much about that. Do they hate homosexuals etc.? Pity if they do. The caricature would be deserved.

Cartoon 4: lions. 'nuff said

Cartoon 5: Funny (to me) because it restricts the satire to "Trump Christians", a group (including some friends of mine) which I don't understand at all. Their support for Trump is impossible to square with Biblical values

No, I don't see myself in any of those above-described groups. I see my faith and myself attacked in retaliation for calling out the bigotry in the first place.... way earlier in the page. Trumpeters are not the only people wearing dog-whistle hats.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Big RR » Fri May 17, 2019 3:28 pm

Have to disagree with you re your assessment of cartoons 1and 2:



Cartoon 1--here we see a guy bludgeoning someone identified as an atheist with a cross; when the atheist grabs the cross and goes to break it he says "Hey. Let's have a little respect here", presumably for the cross which is admittedly a symbol of the christian faith. But the point here is that the man who is using the cross as weapon to beat someone doesn't see that he is disrespecting the cross (and hence the religion) far more. It's not meant to disrespect all Christians, but to show that some who use the cross as a weapon have no idea what respect of that religion entails.

Cartoon 2 is a bit more subtle. There is a "wall" between church and state, but the point to made here is some churches want it both ways. There are serious concerns about churches becoming political organizations, and many (myself included, don't know where the ACLU stands) believe that if a church becomes a political organization and chooses to break down that wall, they should then not be able to hide behind it. Clearly every person (of any religion or no religion) does and should have the right to "have the same right to agitate lawfully for new or changes to legislation", and clearly churches have the right to preach their form of morality. But when the church moves on to things like, e.g., supporting specific candidates in elections, effectively tearing down the wall, they do run the risk of having some cross it and limit their political activities. You cannot and should not have it both ways. I don't quite get your point of how it would be different if it were a mosque.
Last edited by Big RR on Fri May 17, 2019 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Postby Crackpot » Fri May 17, 2019 3:54 pm

Re cartoon 3 they do and it is.
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