Those who call themselves Christians

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
Personal philosophy welcomed.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Lord Jim »

Don't see anything to disagree with there...
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Sue U
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Sue U »

Just gonna leave this here as relevant to religion, the Bible and US politics:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19683&p=272530#p272530
GAH!

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RayThom
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Those who call themselves Christians

Post by RayThom »

And to those white, evangelical, Christians: What attributes that you find so comforting in your Lord and Savior, Jesus H. Christ, do you also find in your president and leader, Donald J. Trump?
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Yeah, c'mon all you white evangelical Christians who both support Trump and inhabit this forum. Give Ray an answer! Nothing? Nothing? You showed 'em Ray! :ok
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Well, Trump's buildings are topped with a capital T, Jesus' with a lower case t (without that hook at the bottom in this font).

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Sue U
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:Well, Trump's buildings are topped with a capital T, Jesus' with a lower case t (without that hook at the bottom in this font).
My son (age 4, as we're driving by the local Catholic high school): That's where the teenagers go to school! You can tell because there's a big "T" out front, for "teenager"!

Me: ...
GAH!

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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Otr, as George Carlin said--"it's good Jesus wasn't born in the 20th century; imagine all those kids in catholic school wearing electric chairs around their necks."

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Scooter
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Scooter »

It was Lenny Bruce, I believe, who said it first, although others have used or adapted the line.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Now that I think of it, Lenny Bruce might well have been the first one to say it, or, if I recall correctly, write it (I think in one of his Playboy articles--see, even then I read the articles :D ). And it has been repeated many times by a lot of comedians. Thanks

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by BoSoxGal »

I don’t think the Romans would have gone for electric chairs - takes away all the fun of the long slow torturous death under the hot sun, after all.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

If I understand correctly, the theory is that if Jesus had been born in first 2/3 of the 20th century, the United States would have executed him by electrocution? (No other country employed the electric chair)

That is a dismal view on our fellow 20th century USians; parents, grandparents. The greatest generation and so forth. I don't recall anyone being executed in the USA for religious views following the harnessing of electricity, so the remark is not really witty at all, much less funny.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Bicycle Bill »

BoSoxGal wrote:I don’t think the Romans would have gone for electric chairs - takes away all the fun of the long slow torturous death under the hot sun, after all.
Agreed ... they had faster, more efficient ways to kill people if necessary (like a guick gladius thrust to the heart).  Crucifixion was supposed to be a slow, ignominious punishment and death.
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Meade--Well they burned witches in Salem, so execution of outsiders with different views who have done nothing (unless you really believe they could dry up a cow by a spell) for their strange views is not unknown in the US. Add to this the hanging of Mary Surrat, or the electrocution of Ethel Rosenberg shows that the US was not above executing people for things they only had tangential connections to (even in the 20th century and even by electrocution). And face it, Jesus was not executed for religious views, he was executed on trumped up sedition charges, which could easily have been done in the 20th century US if he was viewed as a "danger" or just pissed the wrong people off.

But come on, wearing a symbol of the means of execution around your neck to demonstrate your religious faith (and basing many religious ceremonies on its shape (like the progression of the RC mass, e.g.), is a bit strange; and pointing out that it could have been an electric chair demonstrates that. Funny--perhaps not; but it is pointed and amusing.

BSG--True--but the cross was also part of the spectacle--the public show of the power of the government; later executions by that same quick thrust Bill describes were done as publicly in big shows like in the Coliseum. When electrocution came out, executions were still public and people lined up to witness the new "scientific" execution method and watch the criminal burn--it was still done to show government power. They were later done behind closed doors, but with that same show of force; one of the responsibility of death row guards is to be sure that the prisoners do not commit execution before the state can kill them (like what happened with a number of prominent Nazis after WW2).
Last edited by Big RR on Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Lord Jim »

they burned witches in Salem
Actually, they were hanged; burning witches was a European thing:
Twenty people were eventually executed as witches, but contrary to popular belief, none of the condemned was burned at the stake. In accordance with English law, 19 of the victims of the Salem Witch Trials were instead taken to the infamous Gallows Hill to die by hanging. The elderly Giles Corey, meanwhile, was pressed to death with heavy stones after he refused to enter an innocent or guilty plea. Still more accused sorcerers died in jail while awaiting trial.

The myth of burnings at the stake in Salem is most likely inspired by European witch trials, where execution by fire was a disturbingly common practice.
https://www.history.com/news/were-witch ... tch-trials
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Actually, they were hanged; burning witches was a European thing:
True, except for the guy who was pressed to death by placing stones on a door, but then he may not have been a witch under their view of things.

thanks for pointing that out.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Joe Guy »

Big RR wrote: True, except for the guy who was pressed to death by placing stones on a door...
A pressed sandwitch?

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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Big RR »

Actually, in one production of The Crucible I saw, based on the performance of the actor who played him, it was a pressed ham.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Don't you think (Big RR) that Bruce failed to frame his joke (alleged) in proper terms? I suppose it was probably in the late 50s or early 60s.

The USA was the only country to use the electric chair for executions (citation needed), so the joke should begin with the qualification that if Jesus appeared "today" (when Bruce made the "joke") in the U.S.A. then . . . etc.

However, that's not sufficient because old Lenny would have needed to check which of the various States of the Union were using the electric chair in order to exclude those using the gas chamber. Those would be almost all the Eastern States plus the south including Texas. The western states (minus S Dakota and Nebraska) never adopted the electric chair. :geek:

So, he should have said, "If Jesus appeared today in New Jersey (or Ohio etc.) then. . ." but even then, a problem remains.

There's no evidence that anyone was walking around in first century Mediterranean countries wearing a cross at all. That came much, much later. So if Jesus had been born and executed in the 20th century, the "Catholic kids" in 1960 wouldn't have been walking around with any symbols of execution round their necks! So the joke falls flat! :( Even worse, would they have been "Catholic"? That Big C indicates the Roman church. Let's say Jesus was executed in oh . . . 1932. How on earth would there have been a Roman Catholic church only 28 years later and how would they have created schools in the USA by then?

No, sorry. It just does not stand up. (Pun!)
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Crackpot
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by Crackpot »

I think the joke that you’re missing is that the the symbol of a religion is a method of torture/execution. And the incongruity of that from the message supposedly preached. The electric chair serves the purpose of the joke as it is a singular understable and modern image of the means of execution. What could you iconify about a gas chamber? Lethal injection and firing squad could be symbolized but not in a manner that could be unmistakable (you could be a sportsman or a fan of IV drugs). The noose would work but that is by no means modern. So for the context of the “joke” the electric chair is probably the best option for the point trying to be made.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Those who call themselves Christians

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Crackpot wrote:So for the context of the “joke” the electric chair is probably the best option for the point trying to be made.
Only if one is chauvinistic enough to assume Jesus would have chosen 20th century USA to visit. I suppose he might, given that absent his actual life (which I gather was a while back), there would presumably not be a Constitution regulating church/state relations. But were there enough people of Israel in (say) 1930s USA to make the visit worthwhile and relevant? He'd have to offend their religious sentiments in order for them to make false accusations of treason. That is so unlikely that his mission would have missed the boat a bit.

No, I think Israel would still be the location, although he'd have to wait until at least 1948 and even then the symbol would have to be a rifle (or the noose). Lenny's lack of specificity (and Carlin's if he repeated it) is a real problem.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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