Prayer Does Not Work

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Prayer Does Not Work

Postby RayThom » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:39 am

He's still breathing.

Please God, maybe one more bucket of chicken...

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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby wesw » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:54 pm

those damned catholics ruined you.

ever wonder why they discourage reading the bible for yourself?
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Prayer Does Not Work

Postby RayThom » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:39 pm

wesw wrote:... ever wonder why they discourage reading the bible for yourself?

No? Please elucidate, o' wisest of all.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby wesw » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:43 pm

read it and you ll know.

I d give you fish, but it is better for you to learn to fish for yourself.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby wesw » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:46 pm

I blame saul..., er..., Paul.....
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Econoline » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:19 am

wes - I can't speak for Ray, but in my own experience — after a combined 12 years of catechism classes and Catholic school, and despite my current objections to much of what the RC stands for, and despite whatever other ways they screwed up my mind — I can honestly say that no priest, brother, or nun ever discouraged me or any of my classmates from reading the Bible.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Big RR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:31 pm

Econo--I don't know the official RC position in modern times (I do know the RC Church opposed the printing press and printing of the Bible early on, but then all religious groups were pretty intolerant of any dissent then), but I do recall some of my RC friends in the 50s and 60s were discouraged by their nuns at school and priests from reading the bible lest they misinterpret it (it started when a couple of my friends were surprised that my Lutheran church gave me a Bible in third or fourth grade while they were discouraged from reading, let alone owning, one); the bible was always read in their (catholic) schools and at mass, but personal reading at home was discouraged--my understanding was this also applied to the adults. I think the church did have bible study classes where it was read, just not at home. Now this was in NYC (Brooklyn) in the 50s/60s and from fairly conservative Irish and Italian RC churches (funny, each group pretty much had its own parish), so it may not have been all that widespread (but my wife was raised catholic in Newark NJ and also recalls the same policy), and i do recall seeing "Catholic" bibles in English (the one that sticks with me was the "vulgate"--I just liked that name), so I doubt everyone followed the policies, even in those parishes
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Scooter » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:01 pm

I went to Catholic elementary and high schools in the 70s and early 80s where individual bible study was encouraged, in addition to readings that were assigned as preparation in religion classes. It was a commonly suggested Lenten observance to work through one or more books of the Bible by reading a chapter or two each day.

But that was also post-Vatican II which probably made a difference.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Big RR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:27 pm

I agree. I think Post Vatican II a lot of the more conservative practices among the parishes changed, although it seems the pastors had a lot of autonomy in their own parishes, so some vestiges may have remained. I do know I have attended Tridentine masses in Latin in some US parishes, and I thought Vatican II did away with that. I also recall that when I was married (in the mid 70s), we could be married in the front of the church (before the altar) even though I was not a catholic (my uncle married a catholic girl in early 60s and had to be married in the back of the church, by the baptismal font (which was usually in the back of most RC churches then). At the time pre cana classes were just beginning and as a non catholic I could not attend them (fine with me--we had to do 4 private sessions with the priest instead), but now I understand they are open (and required) of all. I am/was also the godfather of several children in RC baptisms, something that (I'm pretty sure) was not permitted before Vatican II.
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Prayer Does Not Work

Postby RayThom » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 pm

One morning on my way to my 6th grade class at St. Andrew's parish school I found an orange pocket sized bible -- KJV, and not the somewhat approved RC/DRV*. I put it in my white opaque nylon shirt pocket. Little did I know it was fairly visible once I had permission to remove my blazer in class on that very hot day.

My so-called teacher, Sister Rita Bernadette, eventually spotted it and, tapping it hard with her pointer, demanded that I take it out and show her what it was. Once my heresy was revealed she began chastising me for being in possession of such anti-Catholic garbage.

I had to stay after class and forced to listen to her rant and rave about the sinful path such nonsense would lead me. The sanctimonious, black robed hag eventually let me go with a warning, and telling me how lucky I was that she chose not to call it to the attention of our parish pastor -- Fr. Hughes. (An exorcism, maybe?)

* I attended two different parish grade schools -- and a RC high school (Msgr. Bonner) -- none of which never-ever cracked open the DRV bible for any kind of in-depth study. All my bible knowledge came from approved bible stories -- mostly all "fire and brimstone" Old Testament. The only DRV bible verses I was exposed to were from the church pulpit during mass, which I started to skip regularly by the time I graduated grade school. (However, I was forced to attended "class mass" once a week while in high school -- I think it counted as part of my Religion courses, but I'm not sure.) As Big RR mentioned, I feel the post Second Vatican Council probably did a lot to open up new ways of revealing RC doctrine and dogma, but I long separated myself from the church before it took any measure of effect.

Oddly, I had many relatives who were bishops, monsignors, priests, and nuns -- all dead now. How deep (and distorted?) was their belief to go that distance for their Lord and Savior?
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Big RR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm

To be fair, the KJV has a lot of Protestant detractors as well; my denomination (the United Church of Christ) doesn't particularly care for it, and especially objects to its sexist language (along with archaic language). So anytime I get a chance to provide the morning music (usually several times during the summer) I usually perform something from the KJV (full of thees and thous, etc.) or, to avoid the gender objectionable language, something in Latin. I'm sure the minster doesn't care for it (well, I don't know if she knows Latin, so she may not fully appreciate it), but I perform for free so there's not much she can say (and the congregation always appreciates classical anthems); it's not like our choir (which does not sing during the summer) has all that many soloist voices.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby wesw » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:40 pm

I was talking to my friend the other day about religion, and I was surprised, as he goes to church every week, that he was unfamiliar with the bible.

he explained that reading the bible is discouraged lest, as was stated above, he didn t interpret it correctly.

pretty plain stuff.

I read the old testament in the king james version, which I would discourage unless you grew up reading old literature and are somewhat familiar with old speech and the differing meaning of words as opposed to todays meanings.

I read the new testament in the American standard revised edition, or something like that, (from the '50's) which was great and easy with maps and gave the modern (fairly modern) place names for the ancient names of places in various appendixes .

I was so relieved when jesus said that the endless geaneologies were a waste of times....

....because I must admit I only scanned much of the "begats...." trying to catch the tribal movements the were sprinkled into all of the "begats".

I will say to read and re-read, because more is learned and understood from multiple readings.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby wesw » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:42 pm

....even if you are an atheist, there is wisdom there.

the scales of justice didn t come from thin air.

a fair set of scales is good.

crooked scales are evil.

and much much more.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:04 am

For me, the KJV is the most poetic of the translations and the best in its time. It is also one of the poorest of translations since that time. Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic were (by comparison to today) not well-understood by the end of the 1500s. Major discoveries (such as those of Qumran) had yet to be made. It's best to use at least three translations (including the KJV) to gain best understanding of the text, as is true of secular materials in many cases.

As to "sexist", danger Will Robinson! As an example, if we change "sons of God" in Paul to "sons and daughters of God" (when the feminine was not used) we can miss something important. Yes, masculine-centered practices at the time meant it was difficult (but not impossible) for Jewish women to inherit property; Numbers 27, any son, born later or adopted, stood in line of inheritance before any daughter, even a first-born. Paul makes a point in Romans 8, writing to men and women (by name) that all are adopted as if "sons" of God; that is, co-heirs with equal status, not second-class children. The female cannot be supplanted. He then calls all "children" of God. We lose this subtlety by carelessly replacing "sons" with "sons and daughters".

In other places, of course, Paul's a product of his times; sexist in his views. Ain't history wonderful?
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Econoline » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:09 am

I've gotta say that the epistles of Paul are some of my least favorite books of the Bible. What a jerk.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:07 pm

Heh heh! I see you haven't quite got the hang of the rest of the book. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby Big RR » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:56 pm

Meade--while I agree that the KJV is not accepted by many biblical scholars as being a great translation, one reason I do like it (besides the poetic language) is that it attmept6s to be a literal word for word translation. True, the Greek text which w2as translated is not generally viewed as the best of the early biblical draft, but then it was not the worst either. My problem with many modern translations is that the translators avoid the word for word translation and attempt to paraphrase to make the text comprehensible in the modern vernacular (as I recall, it is called something like dynamic translation to avoid the charge of paraphrasing, but it seems like paraphrasing to me). And such translations bring into account the particular beliefs of the translators since this will color their understanding of the passages they are, in essence, summarizing. This may have been true of early translators as well, but endeavoring to create a word for word translation tends to limit the effect of these biases.

You are correct that true study of any literary text (including the bible), failing becoming fluent in the language f the original (or earliest) drafts, requires study of multiple translations, but I have a strong leaning toward using literal translation (and often, even, showing interlinear translations where the original language is above and the translation is below (I liked this way to study Chaucer, e.g.), and not relying on someone's summary about what is meant.
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Re: Prayer Does Not Work

Postby MajGenl.Meade » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:26 pm

I agree, Big RR. 100%. That's one reason why I prefer the English Standard Version (ESV) to the New International Version (NIV). There are other reasons but the first is enough.

The problem with dynamic translation (missing structure and meaning as I pointed out earlier) is that connections are lost. Example, in the New Living Translation:

John 10:15 Jesus says, "just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep"

John 13:37 Peter says to Jesus, “But why can’t I come now, Lord?” he asked. “I’m ready to die for you.”

The NLT reader completely misses that the words in both cases should read, "lay down" my life. The Greek is the same word, reflexive and prostrate in sense. There is no sense in which it means "sacrifice".

Peter is copying Jesus' statement because Jesus has just finished telling them that they must love one another as he loves them. Ergo, if Jesus is ready to lay down his life for them, Peter will do the same for him.

But the NLT translators don't care - they just want to make it easy to read.
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