Blessed are the flatbread makers...

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Gob
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Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Gob »

"It's our tradition, you can't copy it, God will smite the mightily..." :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Church of England has withdrawn its advice for hosting an Easter meal at home following backlash from priests and Rabbis over claims it 'appropriated' Jewish Seder tradition.

The guidance was issued on how to celebrate Maundy Thursday – which marks the beginning of the three-day celebration of Easter – at home amid the coronavirus pandemic.

It called on families to gather at the table with a bowl of warm water, flatbread, honey and a sprig of rosemary before encouraging them to state: 'This is the night when God delivered his people Israel from bondage and oppression in Egypt.'

But the guide, which also included a recipe for flatbread, has been criticised for 'appropriating liturgy' from Judaism over its similarities with Seder - a meal shared by Jewish people at Passover that includes the preparation of unleavened bread, bitter herbs and salt water.

The Church of England has since withdrawn the advice and issued an apology 'for any offence caused'.

In a document entitled Prayer At Home, published by the Church of England, it said: 'This short form of prayer is intended to be used at home by those who at this time of the pandemic are unable to gather with others to celebrate the Holy Communion on the evening of Maundy Thursday.

'While the prayers and actions echo motifs from the Jewish Seder, this is not such a meal. 'Jewish people will understand the resonance of the symbols and practices in very different ways from Christians.'

The Church also promoted a Facebook event on Wednesday alongside a screenshot from a video, which was never published, that appeared to show a family taking part in a Christian-style Seder.

But members of the clergy have claimed the guidance was inappropriate.
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Big RR
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

I always thought the Last Supper was a Passover seder; how could jesus appropriate those traditions and give them to the heathens? :shrug

FWIW, I fail to see how celebrating things we have in common (however incompletely) is a bad thing or offensive.

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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Burning Petard »

Yes, the 'Abrahamic faith traditions' share many things. But we also share two millennia of family feuds and murderous intent.

In my faith tradition, we call the sharing experience last nite, an Emmaus meal. Not much like a seder, except there is lots of time for sharing stories. Most of the seder traditions today, accumulated long after the death of Jesus. Looking at it now, the Emmaus meal is a strange name for a Maundy Thursday activity. I think the name comes from a story about a couple of friends, after the execution of Jesus, walking from Jerusalem to Emmaus and talking as they walked with a stranger they met along the way. They get to Emmaus and stop to eat. They recognize that Jesus is there with them, and immediately jump up from the meal and run back to Jerusalem.

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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

I haven't heard that term before, but it seems to be some sort of open fellowship meal. As I recall from seders I have attended, the door is often left unlocked and custom demands stranger not be turned away. I am sure the customs have changed and will continue to change, but I believe the welcoming of a stranger is integral to both faiths.

I agree there is a lot of bad blood between christians and jews, but I still think it is better to celebrate the similarities than to focus on the differences. I any event, I do not see how this is cultural appropriation. And I think recognizing the similarities can only be a good thing. I have learned a lot abut islam from the outreach programs my church has had with a local mosque for the last few years, and that can only promote understanding and tolerance, if not acceptance of our differences.

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Sue U
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Sue U »

The Last Supper, while occurring during Passover, was emphatically NOT a Passover Seder, because the Seder was a later invention more than a century after Jesus. Until 70 CE, we still brought the paschal sacrifice to the Temple and observed the rituals and traditions that went with Second Temple culture. The Seder was created as a way to preserve the Passover holiday -- one of our three principal festivals ordained in the Torah -- in the religious cataclysm following the Roman destruction of the Second Temple. So no, it is not a tradition in any way shared by Christians and Jews, which were already quite separate religions during its evolution.

Christians mimicking a Seder is one more way of misunderstanding Jewish culture and religious practice, one more way to de-Judaize a core religious observance and one more way to claim a false "Judeo-Christian heritage."

If you want to go to a Seder, ask your Jewish friends to invite you. Be respectful of our culture. Try to avoid assuming it has anything to do with yours or relating it to Jesus or Easter. Even though he may have been a Jew, most of what is Judaism today developed long after his followers went their own different way. The historical Temple cult that was Jesus's actual religion is gone, and as a result literally everything about Jewish practice has been reworked and reimagined to meet radically different circumstances.
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Sue U wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:35 am
The historical Temple cult that was Jesus's actual religion is gone, and as a result literally everything about Jewish practice has been reworked and reimagined to meet radically different circumstances.
So I take it then that pork is no longer treyf and you will be serving ham for dinner tomorrow?   :lol:

While I will agree with you that a lot has changed in the past couple of millennia, there are still enough 'hold-overs' from the 'historical Temple cult' that it does become confusing to the average gentile, and misinformed assumptions are common ... but I refuse to believe that it is an attempt to 'co-opt' or otherwise denigrate Judaism (well, maybe it is for some people, but not as a general rule).  Constructive communication and education about Judaism vis-à-vis Christianity — and their similarities as well as their differences — are what is needed and should be encouraged.
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

Sue U wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:35 am
The Last Supper, while occurring during Passover, was emphatically NOT a Passover Seder, because the Seder was a later invention more than a century after Jesus. Until 70 CE, we still brought the paschal sacrifice to the Temple and observed the rituals and traditions that went with Second Temple culture. The Seder was created as a way to preserve the Passover holiday -- one of our three principal festivals ordained in the Torah -- in the religious cataclysm following the Roman destruction of the Second Temple. So no, it is not a tradition in any way shared by Christians and Jews, which were already quite separate religions during its evolution.

Christians mimicking a Seder is one more way of misunderstanding Jewish culture and religious practice, one more way to de-Judaize a core religious observance and one more way to claim a false "Judeo-Christian heritage."

If you want to go to a Seder, ask your Jewish friends to invite you. Be respectful of our culture. Try to avoid assuming it has anything to do with yours or relating it to Jesus or Easter. Even though he may have been a Jew, most of what is Judaism today developed long after his followers went their own different way. The historical Temple cult that was Jesus's actual religion is gone, and as a result literally everything about Jewish practice has been reworked and re-imagined to meet radically different circumstances.
i am sorry Sue; I concede I misused the term "seder", but it is my understanding that Jewish families did gather together to "celbrate" in some way, the Passover. Yes, there was ritual sacrifice in the temple, but I also believe ti was celebrated as a people who were delivered from slavery by the hand of god, was it not, and families would gather, either in Jerusalem or at home, to celebrate that oneness. Is this incorrect.

The gospels also state that the gathering in the upper on on Thursday evening was to celebrate the Passover, which leads me to think that such celebrations were not uncommon, but I defer to your knowledge of judaism regarding how the celebration would have been clebrated nd its relation to the modern seder.

However, judaism and christianity do share a sigificant common heritage, and many of the early chrisitian religious customs and rituals were based in judaism; I don't think the idea of a Judeo Christian heritage is false. Indeed, I think most religions share some commonality, but judaism and christianity have much in common, especially with Pharisaic judaism of the time, and the importance of teachers as opposed to priests. Do you think recognizing and/or celebrating these similarities is somehow wrong?

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eddieq
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by eddieq »

I thought Jesus hated our pagan Easter ham. Now He hates our Matzah too?

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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

I have it on good authority that he likes pastrami--especially on pumpernickel with mustard.

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Gob
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Gob »

All a bit "Judean People's Front" as far as I'm concerned...

"Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise."
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Sue U
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:12 pm
i am sorry Sue; I concede I misused the term "seder", but it is my understanding that Jewish families did gather together to "celbrate" in some way, the Passover. Yes, there was ritual sacrifice in the temple, but I also believe ti was celebrated as a people who were delivered from slavery by the hand of god, was it not, and families would gather, either in Jerusalem or at home, to celebrate that oneness. Is this incorrect.

The gospels also state that the gathering in the upper on on Thursday evening was to celebrate the Passover, which leads me to think that such celebrations were not uncommon, but I defer to your knowledge of judaism regarding how the celebration would have been clebrated nd its relation to the modern seder.
Ok, some basics: Passover is a pilgrimage holiday, which means (in Temple times) everyone brought their sacrificial lambs to the Temple in Jerusalem to be slaughtered and roasted, and then took them back to Bubbe and Zayda's house/tent/bivouac/hotel room where they ate them in a festive meal and recounted the story of the Exodus. This had been going on for at least a thousand years before Jesus showed up, with the exception of about a 60-year interruption for the Babylonian captivity (586-538 BCE, plus time to rebuild the Temple). But really, further back than about 900 BCE or so, things get kinda hazy. Nevertheless, while festive meals were had by family groups and entire communities celebrating the three pilgrimage holidays (Passover, Shavuoth and Sukkot), the point of these festivals was to bring everyone together at the Temple.
Big RR wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:12 pm
However, judaism and christianity do share a sigificant common heritage, and many of the early chrisitian religious customs and rituals were based in judaism; I don't think the idea of a Judeo Christian heritage is false. Indeed, I think most religions share some commonality, but judaism and christianity have much in common, especially with Pharisaic judaism of the time, and the importance of teachers as opposed to priests. Do you think recognizing and/or celebrating these similarities is somehow wrong?
While I am on record as being (generally) pro-cultural appropriation, I'll leave it to Rav Danya to explain why "Judeo-Christian" is at best problematic (click the linky and read her thread):
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Econoline »

A few years ago Jim Wright had several Facebook posts and then a long follow-up blog post on Stonekettle Station with the title "The Myth of Judeo-Christian Values". It's well worth reading in full. He tried (in vain) to get his thousands of social-media followers to define the term "Judeo-Christian Values"—to define it with enough specificity so that it does not simply mean the same thing as "Christian values", or "Judeo-Christian-Islamic values", or "American values", or even just "human values". Everyone who uses the term seems to just assume that everyone knows what it means, but no one actually does.

Hence, "The *MYTH* of Judeo-Christian Values". It's a weasel-word term that no one can actually define but that everyone somehow still just UNDERSTANDS.
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

Perhaps Econoline, but celebrating commonality and similarities is not a bad thing IMHO; as I said, we can find these among all religions (or at least the ones I am aware of). Face it, there are big differences even within religions--catholic vs protestants, reformed vs orthodox judaism, shia vs sunni isalm...), but those commonalities are often recognized, even though they can also be used to divide and create an us vs them mentality. I personally would rather celebrate the differences; e.g., over the last couple of years (except for a hiatus for covid) I have had a job as a choir section leader in a greek orthodox cathedral--from what I can understand (much of it is in Greek), there is not all that much of a difference between that and roman cathollcism or protestant churches--there are a lot more similarities.

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eddieq
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by eddieq »

As a practicing (still not getting it right) Christian raised in my faith, I always enjoyed the times when we would do a special "Seder meal" for the Maundy Thursday services. It was unique and different and always was a lesson in the cultural significance to Jesus and His disciples. Adding the context to the "last supper" and some of the words from the scriptures always helped me understand a little better. We always heard about the Exodus and saw the Cecil B. DeMille movie all the time. We learned about the plagues in Sunday School and VBS but it was always pretty clean without a lot of background. Strictly speaking, Jesus was Jewish, so having some of the background to His traditions and practices helps me understand a little of what's going on when I read the stories and listen to the sermons around it.

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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Sue U »

eddieq wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:03 pm
As a practicing (still not getting it right) Christian raised in my faith, I always enjoyed the times when we would do a special "Seder meal" for the Maundy Thursday services. It was unique and different and always was a lesson in the cultural significance to Jesus and His disciples. Adding the context to the "last supper" and some of the words from the scriptures always helped me understand a little better. We always heard about the Exodus and saw the Cecil B. DeMille movie all the time. We learned about the plagues in Sunday School and VBS but it was always pretty clean without a lot of background. Strictly speaking, Jesus was Jewish, so having some of the background to His traditions and practices helps me understand a little of what's going on when I read the stories and listen to the sermons around it.
Except that the point I was making here is that whatever Jesus was doing for his "Last Supper," it wasn't a Seder, so if you're doing a Maundy Thursday meal that is modeled on a Jewish Seder, you're actually NOT getting the culture or the context of Jesus. A Seder is by definition a post-Second Temple ritual, probably dating to the late Second or early Third Century CE, but certainly some significant time after the Jewish-Roman wars (which ended with the failure of the Bar Kochba rebellion in 135 CE). Prior to the Exile/Diaspora, Jewish religious life was centered in the rites and sacrificial practices of the Temple and the priestly class, which was an altogether different sort of practice than the Judaism of even the Fourth Century CE, let alone that of the 12th, the 16th or the 21st. The paschal meal at the time of Jesus was the roasted meat of the korban pesach (the Temple sacrifice) eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread (almost certainly not the matzah we know today, more probably something like a lavash or tanoor bread). So basically a roast lamb and broccoli rabe wrap. Maybe a souvlaki platter, considering the substantial Greek influence of the time.

Aside from the anachronism of a Seder, the further problem of connecting Jesus and Passover to the celebration of Easter is that it makes Passover a bit player in the Jesus story. I cannot overstate the importance of the Exodus as the defining narrative of the Jewish people and its centrality to Jewish religion and culture. Presenting it as merely the backdrop for Easter, the defining narrative of Christianity, necessarily trivializes Passover or worse, suggests that it has been superseded -- which of course is its whole point.

So you want to understand historical context for your own beliefs and practices? Great! Learn the actual history! You want to celebrate similarities/differences beween cultures and religions? Also great! Compare, contrast -- but don't conflate! Seeing Passover through a Christian lens necessarily distorts its significance and its message and does not lead to understanding at all; it just takes someone else's sacred ritual and makes it a fancy decoration for yours.
Last edited by Sue U on Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

What she wrote. Christians mimicking what they believe to be Jewish festivals are er . . . mistaken
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Gob
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

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GIRL: Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

FOLLOWER: The Gourd!

HARRY: Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us!

ARTHUR: It is a shoe! It is a shoe!

HARRY: It's a sandal!

ARTHUR: No, it isn't!
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by rubato »

"appropriated traditions" WTF? Shove it up your ass sideways.


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Big RR
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Re: Blessed are the flatbread makers...

Post by Big RR »

Seeing Passover through a Christian lens necessarily distorts its significance and its message and does not lead to understanding at all; it just takes someone else's sacred ritual and makes it a fancy decoration for yours.
Sue--one christian "lens" (not necessarily the only one) recognizes the deliverance celebrated in the Passover, recognizing that god chose to spare his followers who showed their faith by placing the blood of the lam outside their house; it was an exercise of faith, and the faithful were redeemed and saved both from death and ultimately slavery. One christian perspective is that the crucifixion and resurrection of jesus is similar; god will save believers from death and damnation based on their faith; indeed, many christians often refer to Jesus as the lamb of god or the paschal lamb, and that the faithful express their faith by accepting that the blood of the lamb has redeemed them. Since belief in the redemption of Jesus is one of the most uniting beliefs of christianity, I fail to see how such a lens reduces it to a "fancy decoration", they are similar exhibitions of god's power and mercy.

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