All change

[loCAtek]

A book I recommend;

Weirdest of all, quantum physicists say that unless certain conditions are met, these subatomic particles don’t actually exist. At least I think that ’s what they’re saying. These are pretty complicated concepts, and suggest a very different view of things. But here’s my problem: Since, at the most basic level we’re just a bunch of particles, I hope this doesn’t mean what I'm afraid it does—that in some very scary way, I'm not really here.


Now for the bad news: If I'm not really here, neither are you. It’s a lot more complicated, but the bottom line is that if we’re not really here, then nothing we think, say, or do means anything, right? What ’s the point of being good? Why do I spend two hours at the gym every day? What really happened to that delicious steak I ate for dinner? This stuff is enough to keep anyone up at night! So my relentless curiosity and simple need to know is what lead me to my passion for Quantum Physics.

What is Quantum Physics in a nutshell? It’s a fascinating branch of science that describes the nature of the incredibly small. As Niels Bohr once said, “Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it.”

Tim - a really, smart, funny tool-using primate- Allen

[thestoat]

As Niels Bohr once said, “Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it.”

And I think it was Feynman who said "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics"

[Big RR]

Bohr and Feynman (at least in these quotes) sound an awful lot like peddlers of superstition, belief in something they maintain cannot be fully comprehended.

[Gob]

Yet.

[Big RR]

Isn't that what religion teaches as well, that all will be understood, eventually?

[MajGenl.Meade]

I don't know about "religion" Big RR - don't Buddhists (some) think that there is nothing to know? It is certainly Christian doctrine as well as secular that man on earth cannot know everything that there is to know. Christians expect to reach a true state of knowledge in whatever heaven is.

I am not sure how you would take this - but Richard Dawkins would be very proud of you. (Here I am inviting the hounds). The message I took from the last book of his I read (God Delusion) is that it doesn't matter if you believe in a god or not - as long as you think about it and reach an informed conclusion.

Now if that is Dawkins' message it shows what a confused man he is. If God is an irrational delusion, then believing that there is a God is not something that "doesn't matter". He's quite clear that it does matter - or he wouldn't have written a book claming that believers are delusional and unable to reach "informed" decisions and conclusions. On the other hand, if there is God then one's belief status obviously does matter a great deal. Dawkins = Burpo lite

Meade

[thestoat]

Dawkins is very clear that he, personally, doesn't believe in any god. And certainly his God Delusion discusses the reasons why he believes there is no god. But the message I took from the book was that he was not against the believers at all. Though he disagrees with them, he acknowledges they have a right (and often take huge comfort) in his belief. His message is simply "think about it - don't believe what you are told without thought". I think that is a great message. I had an atomic physics lecturer who was Christian. I spoke to him about it and he had clearly thought through what life was, to him. He had assessed what he considered the evidence and decided on Christianity. Good for him. Most of the Christians I know (100% of this board excluded) have not thought about it - they have become Christian because their parents were and going to church and worshipping god is "what you do on Sundays". Without thought you can believe anything is real - that is what he is trying to get across imo.

[thestoat]

Bohr and Feynman (at least in these quotes) sound an awful lot like peddlers of superstition, belief in something they maintain cannot be fully comprehended.

Actually Feynman has always come across (to me) as hugely enthusiastic about his subject with a real passion for passing it on. The sound bites quoted are merely that - there is a lot more to the subject than that. I think the statements are a challenge to the reader to see what they mean.

[loCAtek]

Very well Stoat, then debate should be encouraged and stifling it through mockery is bad form 'eh?

[thestoat]

Very well Stoat, then debate should be encouraged and stifling it through mockery is bad form 'eh?

Mockery? What are you referring to? Debate encouraged - absolutely - thus this forum.

[loCAtek]

Roger that, as always I appreciate your openness to discussion, and avoidance of condensation/mockery.

[thestoat]

I have (I think) seen some form of mockery in these pages from most of us (myself included) - I think that is only natural. I have also seen downright abuse, which is a shame (though again, maybe only natural). But I think that the very existence of these pages, with informed people willing to spend their time writing on them, shows debate is alive, well and appreciated.

[Sean]

Roger that, as always I appreciate your openness to discussion, and avoidance of condensation/mockery.

I've heard that wiping the mirror or window with washing-up liquid helps...

Now how could I resist that?

[Daisy]

Mykeru is on twitter.

[MajGenl.Meade]

"think about it - don't believe what you are told without thought". I think that is a great message.

Indeed that's so.

[loCAtek]

There are many forms of Buddhism, the two main branches being Theravada and Mahayana. It is the Theravada school contains one the better known forms of Buddhism in the West- Zen

There is some confusion about Zen because its philosophy translates as: 'No- thought: No- Mind' Some think this means Zen practitioners are trying to attain a state of nothingness. In a longer explanation, through meditation, the practitioner is trying to 'clean' thought of distractions and illusions brought about by daily life. After much study and practice, you may attain 'no thought'

In the state of no-leaking, the mind switches from dualistic to non-dualistic perception, with no boundary and no opposition. One also appreciates the inconceivable, simultaneous existence of absolute independence and universal unification with all things. A person at this stage can use thoughts however they please, but discursive thoughts will not leak out and cause disturbance. Rather than removing thought, there is no leakage of thought.

Mahayana, in my own words, is realizing that 'Zen' or 'no thought' is an extraordinarily, difficult thing to do if you have been hindered and negatively influenced by life, before you got a chance to received training and education in how to still your thoughts and mind. So, you turn to a teacher, or a guru to guide you; and place your trust in that spiritual master to assist you, since you are honest about your own need for help.
This of course, applies to other faiths than Buddhism, you've probably already noticed the similarities to Christianity.

I'm afraid I haven't read the God Delusion, only what's been mentioned here. If I understand correctly, the basic atheist impression of religion from that book and others, is that it is just an indoctrinated belief, that would not occur without prompting at an early age. However, what I've observed is also what I found in teachings of Buddhism- that you may choose to follow a spiritual path at any walk of life, however if you're hindered by the lack of training your mind to center it and cease disturbance; you need to go to teacher or spiritual master. In other words, not teaching spirituality to the young is going to necessitate them following a religion, if they wish to follow a spiritual path when they're older.

[thestoat]

It has been a while since I read the God Delusion. It does talk about indoctrination at an early age - your parents are people you learn to trust - if they tell you there is a god then you instinctively believe it. But there is a load more evidence than that in the book. He does harp on about memes a lot, but also discusses areas hitherto cut off from Christianity who have been found to have developed their own, surprisingly similar 10 commandments (for example). I think he also talks about the basic deity story (humble origins, born in the winter (when all is dying it gives hope of renewal), resurrection, disciples, etc). I am hazy on the details but I didn't find he bashes religion (well, a couple of times he has a go at religious authority) and understands many need it (for various reasons). He finishes by emphasising the theme of the book - if you want to believe in it then go for it - but at least think about it first.

[Crackpot]

actually "christmas" was moved in order to fit winter holidays in order to help pagan transition.

[thestoat]

The God Delusion doesn't concentrate specifically on Christianity - it discusses all monotheastic and polytheastic religions.

[loCAtek]

It has been a while since I read the God Delusion. It does talk about indoctrination at an early age - your parents are people you learn to trust - if they tell you there is a god then you instinctively believe it. But there is a load more evidence than that in the book. He does harp on about memes a lot, but also discusses areas hitherto cut off from Christianity who have been found to have developed their own, surprisingly similar 10 commandments (for example). I think he also talks about the basic deity story (humble origins, born in the winter (when all is dying it gives hope of renewal), resurrection, disciples, etc). I am hazy on the details but I didn't find he bashes religion (well, a couple of times he has a go at religious authority) and understands many need it (for various reasons). He finishes by emphasising the theme of the book - if you want to believe in it then go for it - but at least think about it first.

That's very interesting it sounds a bit like the 'Hero Journey' as described by John Campbell*, of which Jesus Christ fits the mythos;

The Hero with a Thousand Faces
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The Hero with a Thousand Faces

The Hero with a Thousand Faces (first published in 1949) is a non-fiction book, and seminal work of comparative mythology by Joseph Campbell. In this publication, Campbell discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies.

Since publication of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell's theory has been consciously applied by a wide variety of modern writers and artists. The best known is perhaps George Lucas, who has acknowledged a debt to Campbell regarding the stories of the Star Wars films.[1]



[edit] Summary

Campbell explores the theory that important myths from around the world which have survived for thousands of years all share a fundamental structure, which Campbell called the monomyth. In a well-known quote from the introduction to The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell summarized the monomyth:
“ A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.[2] ”

In laying out the monomyth, Campbell describes a number of stages or steps along this journey. The hero starts in the ordinary world, and receives a call to enter an unusual world of strange powers and events (a call to adventure). If the hero accepts the call to enter this strange world, the hero must face tasks and trials (a road of trials), and may have to face these trials alone, or may have assistance. At its most intense, the hero must survive a severe challenge, often with help earned along the journey. If the hero survives, the hero may achieve a great gift (the goal or "boon"), which often results in the discovery of important self-knowledge. The hero must then decide whether to return with this boon (the return to the ordinary world), often facing challenges on the return journey. If the hero is successful in returning, the boon or gift may be used to improve the world (the application of the boon).

Very few myths contain all of these stages—some myths contain many of the stages, while others contain only a few; some myths may have as a focus only one of the stages, while other myths may deal with the stages in a somewhat different order. These stages may be organized in a number of ways, including division into three sections: Departure (sometimes called Separation), Initiation and Return. "Departure" deals with the hero venturing forth on the quest, "Initiation" deals with the hero's various adventures along the way, and "Return" deals with the hero's return home with knowledge and powers acquired on the journey.

The classic examples of the monomyth relied upon by Campbell and other scholars include the stories of Osiris, Prometheus, the Buddha, Moses, and Christ, although Campbell cites many other classic myths from many cultures which rely upon this basic structure.

While Campbell offers a discussion of the hero's journey by using the Freudian concepts popular in the 1940s and 1950s, the monomythic structure is not tied to these concepts. Similarly, Campbell uses a mixture of Jungian archetypes, unconscious forces, and Arnold van Gennep's structuring of rites of passage rituals to provide some illumination.[3] However, this pattern of the hero's journey influences artists and intellectuals worldwide, suggesting a basic usefulness for Campbell's insights not tied to academic categories and mid-20th century forms of analysis.

Wiki

*Joseph Campbell


Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 30, 1987) was an American mythologist, writer and lecturer, best known for his work in comparative mythology and comparative religion. His work is vast, covering many aspects of the human experience. His philosophy is often summarized by his phrase: "Follow your bliss."[1]

Campbell's ideas regarding myth and its relation to the human psyche are dependent in part on the pioneering work of Sigmund Freud, but in particular on the work of Carl Jung, whose studies of human psychology, as previously mentioned, greatly influenced Campbell. Campbell's conception of myth is closely related to the Jungian method of dream interpretation, which is heavily reliant on symbolic interpretation.

...

Comparative religion and Campbell's theories
[edit] Monomyth
Main article: Monomyth

Campbell's term monomyth, also referred to as the hero's journey, refers to a basic pattern found in many narratives from around the world. This widely distributed pattern was first fully described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[19] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[20] Campbell borrowed the term from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[21] As a strong believer in the unity of human consciousness and its poetic expression through mythology, through the monomyth concept, Campbell expressed the idea that the whole of the human race could be seen as reciting a single story of great spiritual importance and in the preface to The Hero with a Thousand Faces he indicated it was his goal to demonstrate similarities between Eastern and Western religions. As time evolves, this story gets broken down into local forms, taking on different guises (masks) depending on the necessities and social structure of the culture that interprets it. Its ultimate meaning relates to humanity's search for the same basic, unknown force from which everything came, within which everything currently exists, and into which everything will return and is considered to be “unknowable” because it existed before words and knowledge. The Story's form however has a known structure, which can be classified into the various stages of a hero's adventures like the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meet with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. As the ultimate truth cannot be expressed in plain words, spiritual rituals and stories refer to it through the use of "metaphors", a term Campbell used heavily and insisted on its proper meaning: In contrast with comparisons which use the word like, metaphors pretend to a literal interpretation of what they are referring to, as in the sentence "Jesus is the Son of God" rather than "the relationship of man to God is like that of a son to a father".[22] According to Campbell, the Genesis myth from the Bible, ought not be taken as a literal description of historical events happening in our current understanding of time and space, but as a metaphor for the rise of man's cognitive consciousness as it evolved from a prior animal state[23]..

Campbell made heavy use of Carl Jung's theories on the structure of the human psyche and he used terms like Anima/Animus and Ego Consciousness, often. That is not to say that he necessarily agreed with Jung upon every issue, and had very definite ideas of his own. He did believe however, as he clearly stated in the Power of Myth, in a specific structure that exists in the Psyche and is somehow reflected into myths.
[edit] Function of Myth

Campbell often described mythology as having a four fold function for human society. These appear at the end of his work The Masks of God, in the volume Creative Mythology, as well as various lactures.[24]

* Awakening a Sense of Awe before the Mystery of Being

According to Campbell, the absolute mysteries of life cannot be captured in words. In that sense no real meaning can be assigned to either life or to the mythic images which try to capture it. Myths are "being statements"[24] and the experience of this mystery can be had only through a participation in mythic rituals.

* The Cosmological Function

Myth also functioned, in its day, as a proto-science, drawing conclusions about the physical world through common observations. Campbell noticed that the old dilemma between science and religion on matters of truth is actually between science of the ancient world and that of today.

* Validate and Support the Existing Social Order

Ancient societies had to conform to an existing social order if they were to survive at all. This is because they evolved under "pressure" from necessities much more intense than the ones encountered in our modern world. Mythology confirmed that order and enforced it by reflecting it into the stories themselves, often describing how the order arrived from divine intervention.

* Guide the Individual through the Stages of Life

As a person goes through life, many psychological challenges will be encountered. Myth may serve as a guide for successful passage through the stages of one's life. For example, most ancient cultures used rites of passage as a youth passed to the adult stage. Later on, a living mythology taught the same person to let go of material possessions and earthly plans as they prepared to die.

Campbell believed that if myths are to continue to fulfill their vital functions in our modern world, they must continually transform and evolve because the older mythologies, untransformed, simply do not address the realities of contemporary life.

There was a fabulous miniseries aired on PBS, that interviewed Campbell and summaries his books called:

The Power of Myth
Main article: The Power of Myth

Campbell's widest popular recognition followed his collaboration with Bill Moyers on the PBS series The Power of Myth, which was first broadcast in 1988, the year following Campbell's death. The series exposed his ideas concerning mythological, religious, and psychological archetypes to a wide audience, and captured the imagination of millions of viewers. It remains a staple of PBS television membership drives to this day. A companion book, The Power of Myth, containing expanded transcripts of their conversations, was released shortly after the original broadcast and became a best-seller.

A whole episode;

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/S3h-MtWWeNk/