The Myth of Religious Wars

[Scooter]

Are you aware of the origins of the Anglican church? Are you so Dence that you can not see how Being Anglican (protestant) would mark you as being loyal to the King?

Except that most Northern Irish Protestants are Presbyterians.

There's a reason they were originally labelled "Scotch-Irish".

So what you're saying is that a preference to blue uniforms over a preference to gray uniforms dictated where you stood on the American civil war as well?

The analogy is moronic. In Ireland, the religion you belonged to dictated the side you were on, not the other way around.

Without showing how the conflct is/was perpetuated by religion the statemnet that it is a cause is tenuous at best let alone the primary cause.

Catholics have always flocked to one banner, and Protestants to the other. How much more "perpetuated by religion" do you need?

Are they integrated the world over or do they hold on to thier respective communities?

They aren't killing each other, as they have done and continue to do in India. Guess that means it's not a religious conflict in India, either.

Interesting note if the lines had been drawn by someone who had the slightest idea of the differences involved and population makeups Partition might have worked.

The partition lines were drawn as much as possible to include majority Hindu areas in India and majority Muslim areas in Pakistan. The fact that Hindus and Muslims were intermingled in many areas meant that huge minorities were left behind in each country, which opened them up to massacre.

Fixed that for you.

that the best argument you can come up with?

Relgious-based hatred has been perpetuated in Ireland for centuries. What better argument is necessary as the reason why Catholics and Protestants continued killing each other down to the present day?

[Gob]

A brief history.

A Centuries-old Conflict

The history of Northern Ireland can be traced back to the 17th century, when the English finally succeeded in subduing the island after successfully putting down a number of rebellions. (See Oliver Cromwell; Battle of the Boyne.) Much land, especially in the north, was subsequently colonized by Scottish and English Protestants, setting Ulster somewhat apart from the rest of Ireland, which was predominantly Catholic.

The Nineteenth Century

During the 1800s the north and south grew further apart due to economic differences. In the north the standard of living rose as industry and manufacturing flourished, while in the south the unequal distribution of land and resources—Anglican Protestants owned most of the land—resulted in a low standard of living for the large Catholic population.
Political separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland did not come until the early 20th century, when Protestants and Catholics divided into two warring camps over the issue of Irish home rule.

The Twentieth Century

Political separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland did not come until the early 20th century, when Protestants and Catholics divided into two warring camps over the issue of Irish home rule. Most Irish Catholics desired complete independence from Britain, but Irish Protestants feared living in a country ruled by a Catholic majority.

Government of Ireland Act

In an attempt to pacify both factions, the British passed in 1920 the Government of Ireland Act, which divided Ireland into two separate political entities, each with some powers of self-government. The Act was accepted by Ulster Protestants and rejected by southern Catholics, who continued to demand total independence for a unified Ireland.
The Irish Free State and Northern Ireland

Following a period of guerrilla warfare between the nationalist Irish Republican Army (IRA) and British forces, a treaty was signed in 1921 creating the Irish Free State from 23 southern counties and 3 counties in Ulster. The other 6 counties of Ulster made up Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom. In 1949 the Irish Free State became an independent republic.

"The Troubles"

Although armed hostilities between Catholics and Protestants largely subsided after the 1921 agreement, violence erupted again in the late 1960s; bloody riots broke out in Londonderry in 1968 and in Londonderry and Belfast in 1969. British troops were brought in to restore order, but the conflict intensified as the IRA and Protestant paramilitary groups carried out bombings and other acts of terrorism. This continuing conflict, which lingered into the 1990s, became known as "the Troubles."

Despite efforts to bring about a resolution to the conflict during the 1970s and 80s, terrorist violence was still a problem in the early 90s and British troops remained in full force. More than 3,000 people have died as a result of the strife in Northern Ireland.

Read more: The Northern Irish Conflict: A Chronology — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/northire ... z1U6WLrbia

[Sean]

CP, you can decide for yourself from books, TV or whatever but I'm giving you the perspective of somebody who actually lived there. When my (English) family originally moved to a staunch Republican part of Ireland we were given a hard time until it was noted that we were Catholic. Religion supercedes nationality in all things over there. The Irish are a deeply religious people no matter wehich side of the fence they sit on. The problems over there will not be solved by any political measures. They will exist for as long as there is a religious divide. Catholic kids are raised to hate Protestants rather than the English and vice versa.

I realise that you will believe what you want to believe and that's up to you but IMO it's always wise to heed the words of somebody who was actually there....

[loCAtek]

Ah so, its the political/secular troubles that color your religious/spiritual views.

Everybody knows the English oppressed the Irish for territorial reasons not religious ones; same as they did the rest of the Empire.

I don't recall them trying to make China nor India, C of E.

[loCAtek]

Wait... this says the cause of the Troubles was secular communism;

The shift to the left

The split in the Irish Republican Army, soon followed by a parallel split in Sinn Féin, was the result of the dissatisfaction of more traditional and militant republicans at the political direction taken by the leadership. The particular object of their discontent was Sinn Féin's ending of its policy of abstentionism in the Republic of Ireland. This issue is a key one in republican ideology, as traditional republicans regarded the Irish state as illegitimate and maintained that their loyalty was due only to the Irish Republic declared in 1916 and in their view, represented by the IRA Army Council.[4]

During the 1960s, the republican movement under the leadership of Cathal Goulding radically re-assessed their ideology and tactics after the dismal failure of the IRA's Border Campaign in the years 1956–62. They were heavily influenced by popular front ideology and drew close to communist thinking. A key intermediary body was the Communist Party of Great Britain's organisation for Irish exiles, the Connolly Association. The Marxist analysis was that the conflict in Northern Ireland was a "bourgeois nationalist" one between the Protestant and Catholic working classes, fomented and continued by the ruling class. Its effect was to depress wages, since worker could be set against worker. They concluded that the first step on the road to a 32-county socialist republic in Ireland was the "democratisation" of Northern Ireland (i.e., the removal of discrimination against Catholics) and radicalisation of the southern working class. This would allow "class politics" to develop, eventually resulting in a challenge to the hegemony of both "British imperialism" and the respective unionist and nationalist establishments north and south of the Irish border.[5]

Goulding and those close to him argued that, in the context of sectarian division in Northern Ireland, a military campaign against the British presence would be counter-productive, since it would delay the day when the workers would unite around social and economic issues.

Your thoughts?

I'd appreciate your explaining the points,instead of taking issue with my bringing them up?

[BoSoxGal]

I did a wonderful independent study history seminar on Irish history in college - I had high hopes of doing a semester or year in Ireland.

Anyway, it seemed to me that the root of the troubles was in the English treatment of the Irish going back centuries - they were considered sub-human by many, just like the 'darkies' in the colonies. Then the English stood by and did nothing while millions of Irish starved in the great famine and millions emigrated to escape it. And yes, it's a great deal to do with religion, because contempt of Catholocism has been the official English position since Henry VIII threw off the Papal yoke.

These things have far more to do with the troubles than any threat of communism.

[loCAtek]

Good reply, but didn't Henry VIII start the first English State religion without divine worship in mind?

The English treatment of the Irish was more of a secular government oppressing an established religion; than a spiritual belief conflicting with another spiritual belief.

Therefore the English government was oppressing the Irish [for following their faith] in order to force a man-made [not divinely inspired] dogma on them.

Seems that established the Irish precedent of resisting secular non-spiritual dogma.