There is a Heaven

[thestoat]

But the point is - how can you seriously vouch for his state of mind with the Sword of Damocles hanging over him? I wonder if you have heard of the Stockholm syndrome? Honestly, you can't seriously use that as proof of anything.

[Scooter]

Not relevant. He may well have started off religious - most people do because they get it from all angles - especially around the time Newton was born when the church was so powerful. His study may well have led him to the conclusion that there is no god - and thus prompted the persecution. People do change their minds with new evidence.

Fine, if you're going to write your own version of history in order to support your conclusions, there's no point in continuing.

btw, you do know that Copernicus, never persecuted during his lifetime, remained a priest until he died, and dedicated his most well known work, On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres, to Pope Paul III. But obviously all of that, too, is meaningless. He was a scientist and therefore clearly must have been an atheist...

[thestoat]

Oooh - strawman alert.

Strawman 1.

Fine, if you're going to write your own version of history in order to support your conclusions, there's no point in continuing.

Reread and you will see that I am doing nothing of the sort. I said ...

"His study may well have led him ..."

It isn't relevant to suggest how he started off thinking. My point is that having death and torture threatened can bring about a change of heart on the surface.

Strawman 2.

btw, you do know that Copernicus, never persecuted during his lifetime, remained a priest until he died, and dedicated his most well known work, On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres, to Pope Paul III. But obviously all of that, too, is meaningless. He was a scientist and therefore clearly must have been an atheist...

I have not once either mentioned Copernicus or suggested that all scientists are atheists deep down. Unless you are stating your point of view - because it certainly isn't mine.

[Scooter]

Oh, ok then, you have no reason for doubting that either Newton or Galileo were believers, just a feeling I guess.

[thestoat]

Oh, ok then, you have no reason for doubting that either Newton or Galileo were believers, just a feeling I guess.

So are you not reading the thread or not understanding it?

1. I didn't mention Galileo being a believer or not
2. I stated

Was he a believer, I wonder? If I were he, and had heard about Galileo, I think I'd say I was a believer too

[Scooter]

If that is not what you were intending, I apologize, but I'm not sure how else to interpret that statement other than as an expression of doubt that he was really a believer (and not just saying so to avoid persecution).

[thestoat]

Hi Scooter - it is one of the very rare times I see the word "apologize" on these boards - shows you to be a very decent chap I don't really have a feel for whether Newton or Galileo was a believer or not. Meade's statement suggested to me that Meade thinks Newton was a believer. Thinking of the times these great men lived in, I merely question how accurate and truthful any testimony they provided really was. It does seem that standing out and saying "I do not believe in god" could easily have landed you and your loved ones in a lot of pain and/or death: I thus wonder how valid was Meade's assertion "believers such as Newton"

[MajGenl.Meade]

His study may well have led him to the conclusion that there is no god - and thus prompted the persecution. People do change their minds with new evidence.

I am curious about your view of history. Newton claimed to be a Christian. Galileo claimed to be a Christian. But they may well have been lying?

Now Galileo "may well have" reached a no-God conclusion, but kept it so secret no-one heard of it.... except apparently the RC church which "may well have" put him on trial without mentioning the secret atheism?

Well I'm all for non-falsifiable aguments. Do you think Galileo and Newton "may well have" been members of an advanced alien civilization?

It is reassuring to read that you "don't really have a feel for" whether those two were believers. One word: Google.

Meade
(who doesn't 'think' Newton was a believer; he knows it, insofar as all historical evidence indicates and allows. What he kept secret was his belief that Jesus was not actually God - he was an Arian. What he didn't keep secret was his belief in the Bible and he published many books about it. He was also a wacky alchemistic type who is presumed to have ingested too much mercury during his experiments but "may very well" have just done that avoid angering other wacky mercury-taking alchemists)

PS you won't relish it Scooter but

[thestoat]

I am curious about your view of history. Newton claimed to be a Christian. Galileo claimed to be a Christian. But they may well have been lying?

I think it is quite possible they were saying what the authorities wanted to hear to ensure they stayed safe from them. I don't know, one way or another, and would never profess to suggest that I do - but I think there is a good possibility of it, yes. Do you think that possibility is so minute as to be comparable with them being members of an advanced alien civilization?

I suspect that an awful lot of people will say whatever you want them to say if you threaten them with torture and death for them and their families. I'm surprised you don't see that.

Google won't help for the reasons stated.

[Big RR]

Well stoat, I have no real knowledge about the beliefs of Newton, but I do think the writings of Galileo (including those before he was ever accused and put on trial), do reveal that he had a belief in god and in the teachings of jesus and the bible. Did his treatment force him to question or recant those beliefs? Maybe, but I see no evidence of that.

[thestoat]

It is quite possible, BigRR. My belief is that I cannot ignore the pressures these people were put under by the church of the time. And I feel it quite possible he started off Christian (most did, and still do, in the UK, since it is heavily taught in schools) but his discoveries led to atheism. I don't know how likely that is or was - but I would put a much much much higher probability on that occurrence than on him being an alien.

[thestoat]

I should say that I started off as a fervent Christian (Methodist) due to the indoctrination I went through. I only started to think about it in my twenties and formed a different conclusion.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think it is quite possible they were saying what the authorities wanted to hear to ensure they stayed safe from them. I don't know, one way or another, and would never profess to suggest that I do - but I think there is a good possibility of it, yes. Do you think that possibility is so minute as to be comparable with them being members of an advanced alien civilization? I suspect that an awful lot of people will say whatever you want them to say if you threaten them with torture and death for them and their families. I'm surprised you don't see that. Google won't help for the reasons stated.

And I feel it quite possible he started off Christian (most did, and still do, in the UK, since it is heavily taught in schools) but his discoveries led to atheism. I don't know how likely that is or was - but I would put a much much much higher probability on that occurrence than on him being an alien.

stoat, I find it extremely difficult to respect a view that is 100% against all the evidence and for which there is no evidence whatsoever. There is not a "good possibility" that Newton wrote his books about the Bible because he and his family were threatened with torture and death by the authorities. There is not a "good possibility" that Galileo became an atheist in secret because of his "discoveries" because these discoveries were entirely in accordance with the Bible that he believed to be the word of God. HIs argument was with the church - not with faith.

A belief on your part about Newton as you describe it is irrational

Meade

[thestoat]

Meade

My view is not "100% against all the evidence" - why do you suggest something so easily refuted? Is that an emotional response?

I did *not* say that there is a "good possibility" that Newton wrote his books about the Bible because he and his family were threatened with torture and death by the authorities. Where are you getting this stuff from? I have seen posts showing you are far too intelligent to have to resort to making things up to bolster your argument. So why do it?

Try to remember my original point. I'll repeat it here.

Was he a believer, I wonder? If I were he, and had heard about Galileo, I think I'd say I was a believer too. Just sayin

A belief on your part about Newton as you describe it is irrational

Judging by what you have written I am not sure you actually understand my belief about Newton.

Let me repeat them here

I don't really have a feel for whether Newton or Galileo was a believer or not. Meade's statement suggested to me that Meade thinks Newton was a believer. Thinking of the times these great men lived in, I merely question how accurate and truthful any testimony they provided really was. It does seem that standing out and saying "I do not believe in god" could easily have landed you and your loved ones in a lot of pain and/or death: I thus wonder how valid was Meade's assertion "believers such as Newton"

My belief is that I cannot ignore the pressures these people were put under by the church of the time. And I feel it quite possible he started off Christian (most did, and still do, in the UK, since it is heavily taught in schools) but his discoveries led to atheism. I don't know how likely that is or was - but I would put a much much much higher probability on that occurrence than on him being an alien.

Those two statements are pretty mild (until twisted and misquoted, of course). I don't see why you would so vehemently disagree.

[Sean]

stoat, I find it extremely difficult to respect a view that is 100% against all the evidence and for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

You mean the bible?

Sorry, couldn't help myself...

[loCAtek]

Well, I think this statement follows the belief that scientific study trumps religious indoctrination; regardless that indoctrination is not ineradicable, be it religious or secular/atheist.

Witness exhibit A: My brother

Whilst I, your Loca, was raised by an atheist mother and agnostic father, and found science to be my favorite subject- I became a spiritual Buddhist.

You could say it was because my experiences with atheism growing up, were negative and the science neutral, which lead me to faith = a positive.

HOWEVER

My brother had LESS religious indoctrination than I, the Catholic Church had been abandoned by the time he was borne, and his childhood was filled with material pleasures and praise of his physical virtue of possessing male masculinity. (Mexicans do that; they worship 'Macho') He was the pride of the Tekka family, rising to own two homes; two cars; two point five kids on his Hospital Administrator salary ... all while becoming a born-AGAIN Christian to boot!

Seems science and secular success wasn't enough, so he sought the spirit.


...while Galileo's daughter became a nun! So, if he was an atheist, it didn't affect her none.


Galileo's beloved elder daughter, Virginia (Sister Maria Celeste), was particularly devoted to her father. She is buried with him in his tomb in the Basilica of Santa Croce, Florence.

[Sean]

Well, I think this statement follows the belief that scientific study trumps religious indoctrination; regardless that indoctrination is not ineradicable, be it religious or secular/atheist.

I must say Lo that I found that sentence a little odd. You do realise that 'secular' and 'atheist' are completely different things don't you?

[MajGenl.Meade]

My view is not "100% against all the evidence" - why do you suggest something so easily refuted? Is that an emotional response?

I quoted you exactly. Your argument consisted of claiming a high possibility that Newton and Galileo were pressured by fear of authorities to writing their works. It backed that up by claiming that you don't know anything about Newton and Galileo's actual beliefs. However, you continued, people threatened with torture of their person and families are likely to tell whatever story the authorities want them to tell.

Now, if you are now claiming that there is no connection whatever between your claim of "high possibility" that Newton and Galileo were so pressured and your claim that people threatened with torture of their person and family - then why did you put the two things together? The only purpose was to provide "support" for your untenable speculation.

All of the evidence 100% of it shows that Newton and Galileo were Christian believers. No evidence whatsoever (0%) shows that they wrote their works under duress of authority. In fact, Galileo's case evidences that he wrote despite whatever fear he had.

You cannot refute that because it is true.

Otherwise, we may just as well speculate that Alexander the Great was in fact a quadriplegic woman. Since 100% of the evidence indicates that he was not, you should be Ok to say it is "highly possible" she was.

(and Sean, there is 100% evidence for the existence of the Bble - I have one on my desk here... 2 over there... 3 more in the oher room.... Ah you mean the content of the Bible? But those books are the evidence dear sir. You may as well deny that Socrates existed because the writings of Plato, Xeonophon and Aristophenes are not evidence)

[thestoat]

while Galileo's daughter became a nun! So, if he was an atheist, it didn't affect her none.

Well,

1. I didn't mention her daughter
2. You do realise that lots of women became nuns in those times. It was simply the expected thing - either marry or become a nun. It wasn't a big deal then

[Big RR]

That's true, Galileo's children were illegitimate, and Gallileo was expending a lot of effort (and money) to get his son recognized and accepted by the aristocracy of the day; he didn't have the resources to do that for his daughter who went into the convent instead (in those days, "good" women either had a match arranged (and as a bastard this would be hard for her) or entered the convent. Throughout his life Galileo financially supported her (and the convent to an extent) and corresponded with her; many of these letters show what i see as the depth of his faith in god, despite his differences with the church of rome.