In the beginning ...

[Gob]

I have faith I will win the lottery, doesn't make it so though.

[Sean]

There's a simple difference between faith and fact. One is believed and the other is known. No matter how strongly you believe in something it is not fact unless it can be demonstrated as such.

[loCAtek]

Demonstrations of faith have happened.

Demonstrations of fact have happened.




Are they the same thing? And can you prove they are so?



...does it matter?

[thestoat]

Demonstrations of faith have happened.

Then they stop being faith and become fact. Don't confuse "Demonstrations of faith" with hallucinations though, or with people thinking they saw a miracle

As for God being fact, Jesus was a REAL individual that claimed to be the human born son of God.

Lots of people have claimed that throughout history. I have reason to doubt them all.

[loCAtek]

Demonstrations of faith have happened.

Then they stop being faith and become fact.

Not necessarily, sometimes they don't stop being faith, and sometimes they become miracles.

Don't confuse "Demonstrations of faith" with hallucinations though, or with people thinking they saw a miracle.

can you prove they are so?



...does it matter?


If a placebo cures a person is that by faith or fact? If the cure is not factual medicine, is that a miracle?

[loCAtek]

I have faith I will win the lottery, doesn't make it so though.

Give it time and remove your doubt.

[thestoat]

...does it matter?

Not really. If someone tells me they saw somebody walking on water I would learn a lot about them. Mind you, if they tell me they saw someone turning water into wine I'd be very interested ...

[loCAtek]

Sorry stoat didn't see you right there and added some....

[thestoat]

If a placebo cures a person is that by faith or fact? If the cure is not factual medicine, is that a miracle?

It depends on how you define "miracle". People talk of the "miracle of modern science". If "A miracle is an unexpected event attributed to divine intervention" then the placebo cure is certainly no miracle. If a placebo cures a person then it is by *fact* by definition. And all it indicated was that the illness was symptomatic of the mind rather than the body. No magic. No voodoo. No miracle.

Sorry stoat didn't see you right there and added some....

No worries ... Adds to the fun

[loCAtek]

ThX mate

...does it matter?

Not really. If someone tells me they saw somebody walking on water I would learn a lot about them. Mind you, if they tell me they saw someone turning water into wine I'd be very interested ...

You're saying it does matter then; you've formed a judgment about them.

It depends on how you define "miracle". People talk of the "miracle of modern science". If "A miracle is an unexpected event attributed to divine intervention" then the placebo cure is certainly no miracle. If a placebo cures a person then it is by *fact* by definition. And all it indicated was that the illness was symptomatic of the mind rather than the body. No magic. No voodoo. No miracle.

A slue of clinical studies would say the illnesses and conditions were very real.
If PTSD has no external source, not a virus nor toxin; is it 'real'?

[thestoat]

You're saying it does matter then; you've formed a judgment about them.

I was being glib, because I like wine. But yes, it matters to me in that, to me, someone who says they believe in miracles is different to someone who says they don't. Just as, to me, someone who says they believe in pixies and fairies is different to someone who doesn't.

A slue of clinical studies would say the illnesses and conditions were very real.

I'm not disputing that ... keep those straw men in the field

If PTSD has no external source, not a virus nor toxin; is it 'real'?

Yes, I am sure it is. Can PTSD be cured by placebos then?

[Rick]

Lots of people have claimed that throughout history. I have reason to doubt them all.

Jesus didn't convince enough of his contemporaries to keep from being crucified.

I wouldn't expect it to be different now...

[thestoat]

Jesus didn't convince enough of his contemporaries to keep from being crucified.

Indeed. What a pity he didn't learn from those who went before such as Mithra, Horus, Osiris, etc., etc., and just not bother. Crucifiction isn't a good thing to copy ... I'd have picked something less painful

[dales]

Jesus didn't convince enough of his contemporaries to keep from being crucified.

Indeed. What a pity he didn't learn from those who went before such as Mithra, Horus, Osiris, etc., etc., and just not bother. Crucifiction isn't a good thing to copy ... I'd have picked something less painful

Jesus died for the sins of the world the others you listed did not.

Jesus was mentioned by contemporary historians such as Josephus.

Let the blind see and the deaf hear.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade--

It is indeed impossible that you will not make the choice that you will make.

And therein lies the problem, how can my choice be "free" if I cannot make any other choice? You ask what difference it can make to me that god already knows what choice I will make? It is precisely because then I have no choice, I am only fulfilling the destiny predestined for me. Looking at the concept of salvation as often preached/described in christianity, it would make a great deal of difference to me if I were constrained to seek salvation or to reject it. It's not a choice, it is my fulfilling what must be for me; and somehow the eternal fate of my soul and its reward or punishment are also predestined. Now this may not make a difference to you, but I see it as pretty silly--one is rewarded or punished for doing what they predestined to do since the beginning of time, but god is still just? How?

Big RR - one of us misssed the point there. It's a fact (God or not) that it is impossible that you will not make the choice that you WILL make (axiom, tautology, whatever). Today you may consider X or Y for tomorrow's agenda at 11 a.m. The fact is that you can only choose one of a restricted number. So at 11 a.m. you choose Y. The fact is that yesterday you were already unavoidably going to choose Y today. You actually could not choose X because you chose Y (were going to choose Y). The fact that God knows what your free will choice is going to be doesn't mean that you didn't choose it. To him it was inevitable. To you it seemed like a choice. You thought it was a choice. It was.

Otherwise you surely must argue that the fact that you do have a choice (strawberry jam or marmalade) is proof that there is no God. Or that God does not know everything before it happens. This God sits around being astounded at your selection of breakfast spread on the old toast - I think that's the God that Gob likes to imagine

Love as always
Meade

[Crackpot]

Josephus is one of the few. and one of the entries is likely fake. The other is such a banal footnote to a story about his brother that it is likely legitimate.

[Sean]

To most right minded people there is little or no question that Jesus was a real bloke Dales. The question mark hangs over his attributed 'miracles' and supernatural claims.

That is where faith enters the equation and fact ceases to exist.

[Crackpot]

To most right minded people there is little or no question that Jesus was a real bloke Dales.

I've run into that claim on many occasions.

[Gob]

Otherwise you surely must argue that the fact that you do have a choice (strawberry jam or marmalade) is proof that there is no God. Or that God does not know everything before it happens. This God sits around being astounded at your selection of breakfast spread on the old toast - I think that's the God that Gob likes to imagine

Love as always
Meade

Marmite, for god's sake Meade, marmite man!

[Andrew D]

Big RR - one of us misssed the point there. It's a fact (God or not) that it is impossible that you will not make the choice that you WILL make (axiom, tautology, whatever). Today you may consider X or Y for tomorrow's agenda at 11 a.m. The fact is that you can only choose one of a restricted number. So at 11 a.m. you choose Y. The fact is that yesterday you were already unavoidably going to choose Y today.

If it was known yesterday (or has always ben known or is known to be part of the eternal state of affairs, then yes. But if it was (etc.) not known, how was it inevitable? I could have died between yesterday and 11 a.m. today.

God's knowledge of the occurrence of a thing means that the nonoccurrence of that thing is absolutely impossible. If God knows the occurrence of my choosing Y, then the occurrence of my not choosing Y is absolutely impossible; it will always be absolutely impossible; the eternal state of affairs includes its absolute impossibility. Most importantly, it always was (from our temporal perspective) absolutely impossible.

The absolute impossibility of my not choosing Y negates the possibility of my free will with respect to the "choice" of X or Y. I am merely a marionette.

You actually could not choose X because you chose Y (were going to choose Y). The fact that God knows what your free will choice is going to be doesn't mean that you didn't choose it. To him it was inevitable. To you it seemed like a choice. You thought it was a choice. It was.

Except that it was not. It "seemed like a choice" precisely because I was laboring under the illusion that I had a choice. But the strings controlling the behavior of a marionette -- even a sentient marionette -- are not nonexistent merely because the marionette is unaware of them.

Otherwise you surely must argue that the fact that you do have a choice (strawberry jam or marmalade) is proof that there is no God. Or that God does not know everything before it happens. This God sits around being astounded at your selection of breakfast spread on the old toast - I think that's the God that Gob likes to imagine

Love as always
Meade

I need not argue that "the fact that [ I] do have a choice" proves anything, because it is not established that my having a choice is a fact. What is established is that if God knows the occurrence of a thing, then the nonoccurrence of that thing is absolutely impossible (whether or not God's knowledge makes it impossible).

Someone suggested earlier that God might deliberately not know what is going to happen. That is not Judeo-Christian doctrine, and it poses interesting, perhaps intractable, problems, but it does remove the otherwise absolute impossibility of human free will. I rather imagine that God would be no more astounded by my selection of breakfast spread than I would be by yours (although I don't know what your options are, so I might be). But I suppose that God might choose / have chosen not to know it before I make it. If, however, God knows the occurrence of my choosing boysenberry preserves, then I have no free will with respect to choosing or not choosing boysenberry preserves. I have only a delusion of free will, no matter how persuasive that delusion may seem.