The pope visits the UK ...

[Lord Jim]

It's kind of interesting...

I did a little research on this...

And I learned something new...(which doesn't happen often enough nowadays, but I always enjoy it when it does)

It's not "The Vatican City" which is considered under international law to be the sovereign territory over which The Pope is considered to be the Head of State....

It's "The Holy See":

The Holy See (Latin: Sancta Sedes) is the episcopal jurisdiction of the Catholic Church in Rome, in which its Bishop is commonly known as the Pope. It is the preeminent episcopal see of the Catholic Church, forming the central government of the Church. As such, diplomatically, and in other spheres the Holy See acts and speaks for the whole Catholic Church. It is also recognized by other subjects of international law as a sovereign entity, headed by the Pope, with which diplomatic relations can be maintained.[1]

The Holy See has been recognized, both in state practice and in the writing of modern legal scholars, as a subject of public international law, with rights and duties analogous to those of States. Although the Holy See, as distinct from the Vatican City State, does not fulfil the long-established criteria in international law of statehood—having a permanent population, a defined territory, a stable government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states[4]—its possession of full legal personality in international law is shown by the fact that it maintains diplomatic relations with 178 states, and The European Union, that it is a member-state in various intergovernmental international organizations, and that it is: "respected by the international community of sovereign States and treated as a subject of international law having the capacity to engage in diplomatic relations and to enter into binding agreements with one, several, or many states under international law that are largely geared to establish and preserving peace in the world."[5]

The Holy See is a member of various International organizations and groups including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), International Telecommunication Union, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The Holy See is also a permanent observer in various international organizations, including the United Nations General Assembly, the Council of Europe, UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization), the World Trade Organization (WTO), and the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See

So, even if some here think the Pope should not be accorded the status of a Head of State, it would appear that 178 countries, and well established international law would disagree with you...

The UK is a secular state.

Well that's a rather curious assertion, coming from a fellow who's hereditary Head-of-State is also "The Supreme Governor Of The Church Of England" and who's official title begins:

"Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith..."

I don't know of a whole lot of other Heads Of State, (except for The Pope, of course) who are also the official head of a religion....

"Secular state"? Sounds more like a theocracy to me....

[thestoat]

Lord Jim

That is interesting. It appears that although N. Ireland, Wales and Scotland are secular, the state of the UK as a whole is ambiguous.

[loCAtek]

Granted, but the PM extended the official invitation, so it's a done deal. Re: minorities;

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson

[thestoat]

Granted, but the PM extended the official invitation, so it's a done deal. Re: minorities;

As I have said, I personally have no problem with anyone visiting if they abide by the law of the land. I do feel that such a visit should not be paid for by the tax man, most of whom either don't really give a stuff about him or, if they do, already subsidise his art collection.

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson. I've heard of him. Did he invent the light bulb?

[Big RR]

Granted, but the PM extended the official invitation, so it's a done deal.

When I invite people to my house I expect for them to pay their own expenses--I might feed and entertain them, but I won't pay for them to come.

that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression

Lo--are you really saying that not paying for the visit by taxpayers amounts to oppression of the catholics in the country?

[Lord Jim]

The bottom line is this....

There are over 4 million Catholics in England and Wales....

Not to mention another 700,000 in Northern Ireland....

And there is no way that any British government is going to go out of it's way to insult that population by dissing the Pope...

Hey, if money's the issue, maybe they can kick some unemployed Somali immigrants out of their 3 million dollar home for a week and put His Holiness up there....

[Big RR]

And there is no way that any British government is going to go out of it's way to insult that population by dissing the Pope...

Jim--honestly, how many of that population would you think really cares about how the pope is treated. I imagine some, certainly, but not the entire population.

[thestoat]

And there is no way that any British government is going to go out of it's way to insult that population by dissing the Pope...

Noone is talking about dissing him. But in these financially constrained times with so many decent and worthwhile causes, why pay millions for a visit the Vatican could so easily fund itself?

[Lord Jim]

Noone is talking about dissing him. But in these financially constrained times with so many decent and worthwhile causes, why pay millions for a visit the Vatican could so easily fund itself?

Hey, come on stoat...don't try to poor mouth....

Since even your local governments can afford to put unemployed foreign immigrants in 3 million dollar houses, you guys must be rolling in dough....

Maybe what the Pontiff should do to get the red carpet treatment is show up at the local welfare exchange....

[thestoat]

Since even your local governments can afford to put unemployed foreign immigrants in 3 million dollar houses

I hadn't heard that they had - though it really wouldn't surprise me. Shooting is too good for them Mind you, 3 million dollars would only buy a small flat in much of Britain these days

[Lord Jim]

Lord Jim wrote:Since even your local governments can afford to put unemployed foreign immigrants in 3 million dollar houses

I hadn't heard that they had - though it really wouldn't surprise me. Shooting is too good for them

Well then, I suggest you lock and load stoat. Apparently you missed this heart warming tale that Strop brought to our attention:

A family of former asylum-seekers from Somalia are living in a £2.1million [that would be about 3 million in USD] luxury townhouse in one of Britain's most exclusive addresses at a cost to taxpayers of £8,000 a month.

Abdi and Sayruq Nur and their seven children moved into their three-storey property in a fashionable area of London last month because they didn't like the 'poorer' part of the city they were living in.

Mr Nur, 42, an unemployed bus conductor, and his 40-year-old wife, who has never worked, are now living in Kensington despite the fact that they are totally dependent on state benefits.

They live close to celebrities, including artist Lucian Freud, singer Damon Albarn and designer Stella McCartney, and their home is just minutes from the fashionable Kensington Place restaurant which was a favourite haunt of the late Princess Diana.

The family's new home is believed to be one of the most expensive houses ever paid for by housing benefit, which is administered by local councils but funded by the Department for Work and Pensions.

The disclosure that a single family has been paid so much will embarrass Ministers, who last month pledged to rein in Britain's £20billion-a-year housing benefit bill.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -area.html

You can check out the ensuing discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=754&p=9543&hilit=somalia#p9543

[Lord Jim]

I say what's good enough for Somali refugees, is good enough for the Pope.

[dales]

Tempest in a teapot.

[thestoat]

Wow. What a bloody country.

[loCAtek]

Some news snippets;

A weekend poll commissioned by the BBC found 70% of British Catholics expect the Pope's visit to help the Catholic Church in the UK

...

More than 350000 people turned out the see Pope John Paul II at Coventry airport during his six day visit to England, Scotland and Wales.

...

Pope Will Meet Abuse Victims in UK‎

...



Lord Patten, the prime minister's representative for Pope Benedict's visit to the UK, reaffirmed that the total cost of the Pope's stay to the taxpayer would be between £10m and £12m.

The Catholic Church is also expected to make a contribution of between £9m and £10m towards the costs.

He added that the British people would be "pleased to know" that the visit would cost less than half of one day of last year's G20 meeting.

[thestoat]

And some more

Some 77% of Britons think taxpayers should not help pay for Pope Benedict XVI's visit to Scotland and England, a survey suggests.

An online poll of 2,005 adults issued by think tank Theos also found 79% had "no personal interest" in his visit.

Archbishop Vincent Nichols said he was sure "Catholics are looking forward to this visit very much indeed".

The archbishop's comments came after it was revealed that thousands of tickets remained unsold for events during the visit of Pope Benedict XVI to the UK.

[Andrew D]

Well, it's all in what one chooses to emphasize. Let's try it this way:

The Holy See has been recognized, both in state practice and in the writing of modern legal scholars, as a subject of public international law, with rights and duties analogous to those of States. Although the Holy See, as distinct from the Vatican City State, does not fulfil the long-established criteria in international law of statehood—having a permanent population, a defined territory, a stable government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states[4]—its possession of full legal personality in international law is shown by the fact that it maintains diplomatic relations with 178 states, and The European Union, that it is a member-state in various intergovernmental international organizations, and that it is: "respected by the international community of sovereign States and treated as a subject of international law having the capacity to engage in diplomatic relations and to enter into binding agreements with one, several, or many states under international law that are largely geared to establish and preserving peace in the world."[5]

An entity with rights and duties "analogous to those of States" is not a State. (In international law, "State" = "nation".) States do not have rights and duties "analogous to" those of States; States have the rights and duties of States.

The fact that many nations maintain diplomatic relations with the See does not make the See a State. Every Member State of the United Nations maintains diplomatic relations with the United Nations; that's why national representatives to the UN are called "ambassadors".

Speaking of which, if the See is a nation, why is it not eligible for membership (rather than observer status) in the UN General Assembly?

Anyway, various nations maintain diplomatic relations with individual cantons in Switzerland. That does not make the individual cantons nations.

The bottom line is that "the long-established criteria in international law of statehood—having a permanent population, a defined territory, a stable government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states --" still govern. The See does not have a permanent population, so it is not a nation, no matter how much it and other countries like to pretend that it is.

[thestoat]

Andrew D - interesting observation.I would add that even if it was a bona fide state, it promotes views that are illegal in the UK, such as being anti gay and discriminating against women. (Note that I leave out what many people consider to be a tolerance of child abuse). The red carpet would not be rolled out for other states that promote such activities considered illegal in the UK.

[thestoat]

Woho ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11309357

More than 50 public figures have added their names to a letter in the Guardian newspaper saying the Pope should not be given the "honour" of a UK state visit.

Authors Terry Pratchett and Philip Pullman and actor Stephen Fry are among those critical of the Vatican record on birth control, gay rights and abortion.

Pope Benedict XVI's visit to Scotland and England begins on Thursday.

The co-signatories are not against a tour, but "reject the masquerading" of the Vatican as a state.

Other signatories to the letter in the Guardian include: Professor Richard Dawkins, Ken Follett, AC Grayling, Stewart Lee, Claire Rayner, Lord Foulkes, Lord Hughes, Professor Steve Jones, Sir Jonathan Miller, Diane Munday, Lord Taverne, Peter Tatchell and Baroness Turner.

They say the Pope "as a citizen of Europe and the leader of a religion with many adherents in the UK, is of course free to enter and tour our country".

But they say the Vatican has "been responsible for: Opposing the distribution of condoms and so increasing large families in poor countries and the spread of Aids; promoting segregated education; denying abortion to even the most vulnerable women; opposing equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people; failing to address the many cases of abuse of children within its own organisation".

The letter goes on to say it has also resisted signing many major human rights treaties and has formed its own treaties with states which "negatively affect the human rights of citizens of those states".

According to the writers, calling the Pope a head of state is "convenient fiction to amplify the international influence of the Vatican".

[Big RR]

Well, it's all in what one chooses to emphasize. Let's try it this way:

The Holy See has been recognized, both in state practice and in the writing of modern legal scholars, as a subject of public international law, with rights and duties analogous to those of States. Although the Holy See, as distinct from the Vatican City State, does not fulfil the long-established criteria in international law of statehood—having a permanent population, a defined territory, a stable government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states[4]—its possession of full legal personality in international law is shown by the fact that it maintains diplomatic relations with 178 states, and The European Union, that it is a member-state in various intergovernmental international organizations, and that it is: "respected by the international community of sovereign States and treated as a subject of international law having the capacity to engage in diplomatic relations and to enter into binding agreements with one, several, or many states under international law that are largely geared to establish and preserving peace in the world."[5]

An entity with rights and duties "analogous to those of States" is not a State. (In international law, "State" = "nation".) States do not have rights and duties "analogous to" those of States; States have the rights and duties of States.

The fact that many nations maintain diplomatic relations with the See does not make the See a State. Every Member State of the United Nations maintains diplomatic relations with the United Nations; that's why national representatives to the UN are called "ambassadors".

Speaking of which, if the See is a nation, why is it not eligible for membership (rather than observer status) in the UN General Assembly?

Anyway, various nations maintain diplomatic relations with individual cantons in Switzerland. That does not make the individual cantons nations.

The bottom line is that "the long-established criteria in international law of statehood—having a permanent population, a defined territory, a stable government and the capacity to enter into relations with other states --" still govern. The See does not have a permanent population, so it is not a nation, no matter how much it and other countries like to pretend that it is.

So I guess all tha vatican needs to do is to get some breeding stock in, let a few naturl born citizens arrive (and with their view on birth control, what else would happen?) and they'd be a state?