It must be Xmas, here comes this story again....

[BoSoxGal]

Sorry, but that WAS funny - especially because LJ's post was over-the-top. Could we possibly stop short at just before threatening physical violence to a fellow poster via hypothetical?

eta: Merry Xmas season, indeed!

[MajGenl.Meade]

They need mistletoe...

[Lord Jim]

Sorry, but that WAS funny

If that's your idea of "funny" I strongly suggest you not try your hand at stand-up comedy...

What's "over the top" is a presumptuous asswipe who thinks he's qualified to go around setting other people's children straight about "facts" especially when he has such a well established reputation for having his own "facts" completely bollixed...A fellow like that is no position to try to teach anybody anything, let alone other people's children...

But by all means, continue to embarrass yourself by playing his cheerleader...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oh Jim - it was a highly insulting riposte, wasn't it? I had to smile just thinking of how I'd feel about such a comparison! I'd be pulling out the jewelling pistols

[Lord Jim]

I can think of something more insulting...

Someone could have said rubato was my "intellectual equal"...

That would definitely be Field Of Honour time...



I think rube's just out of sorts because he hasn't had an intellectual equal around here since Quad stopped posting...

It's such a low bar, an earthworm couldn't Limbo under it...

[Jarlaxle]

They need mistletoe...

I need some, actually. To hang on the back of my belt.

[wesw]

well I was actually serious. rube seems to be damaged goods and I hope he heals.

[wesw]

.... and meade, I think that you and I are very much alike. perhaps that is why I bother you so much.....

just saw the last installment of the hobbit , by the way. pretty good. and no dwarven songs, the only part of the books I skimmed iirc, I re read them just before the lord of the rings movie came out, and I was disappointed at the variances from the text. it was just long enough, from the time I read the books, for me not to notice this time

[BoSoxGal]

[Big RR]

You shouldn't punish people for telling the truth.


yrs,
rubato

Come on rubato; especially when it comes to kids there are a lot of true facts that no third party has the right to tell them. Such as his grandfather will die in few days and is in unrelenting pain, or his mother is a prostitute, or his father is not the person he think he is, but is a guy on death row, ... Whether you support the Santa myth or not, it's not your (or any other third party's) business to "tell the truth", especially if it is not even asked for.

I don't think there is an honest comparison between telling a child that Santa Claus is not real and telling a child that his mother is a whore. But that's just me and my liberal education talkin' here. You are making a wildly false comparison.


If my neighbors were teaching their children that Obama was not a US citizen and was trying to subvert our way of life I'd clue them in on that too. If they were teaching the perfectly charming and harmless myth that only white people go to heaven I would tell the children that heaven is a myth invented to manipulate them by fear and they should never trust anyone who does that.


I think we should treat kids with more respect and give them the intellectual tools they will need to protect themselves from manipulation.


yrs,
rubato

Please do let me know what "wildly false comparison" I am making; did I equate the two as you did? No, I did not. I merely responded to your comment that people should not be punished for telling the truth; no qualification one exception there as I see, but feel free to qualify what kind of "truths" people may be rightfully punished for telling. and of course I'm not looking for any real punishment, only condemning this person for doing what she did.

I still maintain, if it's one of your business, you (or any adult) have no good reason to tell a young kid the truth about anything, except to prevent some sort of bodily harm.

eta: BSG--FWIW, I am not a big fan of perpetuating the Santa myth beyond young childhood, but I do think it does make christmas a bit more accessible for young kids in the person of a benevolent giver, and it also makes the broader concept of the spirit of giving/santa easier to explain to older kid (around 6 or 7)--that's what I did (around the same time I inyroduced to them how we should help others, especially at this time of year. I have never heard anyone tell me they had any problems with feeling betrayed when they learned santa was not real, and many people I knew figured out there wasn't a santa long before their parents confirmed it. As for other kids spoiling the myth, that's just a fact of life--kids are kids. But IMHO adults should know better and stay out of it.

As for the OP, if this religion was one in which adherents are discouraged from believing in Santa (or anything else), then the woman might well have been doing her job; but if not, the parents have a right to expect them to be consulted before whe made that statement.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I believe in Santa. My kids (29 and 25) believe in Santa. My wife believes in Santa. To me and mine, Santa represents the act of giving with no expectations. That the giving to others in need is it's own reward.
For all the gifts I got when I was growing up and believing in Santa, I am now paying it forward as much as I can.

And to all the people who destroy some other kids (not thier own ) innocence, shut up and mind your own business.

[Lord Jim]

I've heard lots of adults say that learning Santa wasn't real was a profound experience in their childhoods, because they felt betrayed by their parents.

I wonder if parents ever think about that?

That's interesting...

In my entire life I've never met one single person who expressed that view, so no, I won't be considering that...

It seems to me that a person who would react that way must have some underlying psychological problem that they should address...

And to all the people who destroy some other kids (not thier own ) innocence, shut up and mind your own business.

[BoSoxGal]

You're not a psychologist/psychiatrist, just as you are not many of the professions you weigh in on with the arrogance that you do on a daily basis.

I wish (or do I?) that I could work a gig that would allow me to be the second-most prolific poster on the board; except I'd like to think if I did I'd spend that time with my dogs, kids, spouse, etc. Since we're playing armchair psychologist, what does it say about someone who chooses to spend so much time arguing on the interwebs with someone he can't stand, rather than focusing all that time on positive endeavors?

By the way, when was the last time you checked any literature (parenting, sociological, psychological) on this issue? If you had, you'd know it's a debate, and that many children are negatively affected by it who are otherwise grounded people - I have a feeling you might have known one or two who didn't bother telling you about it. Hard to imagine for you, I'm sure.

Wait for it . . .

[Lord Jim]

Not that it's any of your business, but most the time I spend here is time I spend while working; checking in while doing other things.. .Easy enough to do for anyone with minimal multi-tasking skills...

You're not a psychologist/psychiatrist

I'll put my skills in those areas up against yours any day of the week...(I've certainly demonstrated more than once that I've got your number ...)

I prefer to believe that what rubato has is what many of us lack; a very centered belief in his place in this world and universe that he's not fluffed enough by the pig pile that he won't still participate in a place where he feels he is part of the community and enjoys much of the company.

LMAO

That's the most bizarrely clueless characterization of another poster since Gwen called Steve a "moderate conservative"....

I strongly suggest that you not attempt a career move to FBI profiler...

I'd like to think if I did I'd spend that time with my dogs, kids, spouse

Jealousy much?

The fact is that working for myself from home, I get to spend much more time with my family, and be far more involved in the lives of my children than a father who has to commute back and forth from an office every day...(I should have thought that would have been obvious. The ability to have that experience was the primary reason I made this move 10 years ago.)

And as for arrogance, I'm just not in your league...(few are; maybe your buddy rube)

For example, I've never started a fight with someone here and then announced that if enough people didn't weigh in to condemn the person that I started the fight with, I'd be storming off...

That took real chutzpah...

I'm also not so insecure that I have to constantly keep repeating how smart, knowledgeable, skilled, etc. etc etc. I am...(You may have seen I'm not the first one to notice this about you...)

I wish (or do I?) that I could work a gig that would allow me to be the second-most prolific poster on the board

Oh, I shouldn't worry about that; I'm sure you'll have plenty of time soon enough....

BSG, I've been very restrained in dealing with you since your return to the board. But that last post indicates to me that (just as you did earlier with Guin) you've now decided you really want to start shit with me...

How'd that work out for you the last time?

[MajGenl.Meade]

[Long Run]

And the lying?

Maybe some kids are a bit disturbed about it.

But John Condry's dissertation research included interviews with hundreds of kids, and none of them reported feeling angry at their parents when they found out the truth about Easter and Christmas (Condry 1987).

Maybe that's because kids realize the deception is a friendly one. Studies suggest that children as young as 3 understand the kindly “white lie.”
- See more at: http://www.parentingscience.com/Easter- ... 8xV7s.dpuf

http://www.parentingscience.com/Easter- ... Claus.html

Other articles confirm the Santa myth is either positive or benign.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1160 ... earn-truth

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sin ... anta-claus

http://www.livescience.com/42089-kid-s- ... althy.html

[Lord Jim]

Commonsense should tell anyone that if feeling "betrayed" when discovering the truth about Santa were anything like a typical reaction, that Santa would be a lot less popular today than he is...

Because all these "betrayed" people wouldn't be preserving the wondrous myth for their children...

But most people remember the excitement and happiness that the Santa experience brought to their childhoods, and that's why they seek to give their children the same experience...(or if they don't have children of their own, their nieces and nephews, or any other young children who may be in their lives)

You don't need a doctorate in psychology to figure out that one...

[oldr_n_wsr]

If you had, you'd know it's a debate, and that many children are negatively affected by it who are otherwise grounded people -

The only debate that I have seen (and tried to find) is psycologists and know it alls' saying it adversely affects kids without backing up any of it. Most;ly they debate each other.

I hear "lying to kids is bad" but see no proof when the myth of Santa Claus is found out, causing any problems other than a few tears shed (mostly by the parents) when the kids do find out.

Do children really lose trust in their parents because they perpetuated the fantasy of Santa (or the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny). Most kids I have seen (myself included) are scared that now having found out that Santa isn't real, that the gifts will stop. And all returns to normal the next Christmas when presents do arrive under the tree.

I think it might even strengthen the childs view of their parents who had such humility that they let some guy in a red suit take all the credit for all the things they had been doing for thier kids for all those years.

I would like to see any studies that document people who have been adversly affected by the "lie" that is Santa Claus and what psycholigal affect it had on them.

ETA
Thanks for that Long Run, you posted as I was composing.

But John Condry's dissertation research included interviews with hundreds of kids, and none of them reported feeling angry at their parents when they found out the truth about Easter and Christmas

[Lord Jim]

Most kids I have seen (myself included) are scared that now having found out that Santa isn't real, that the gifts will stop.

It's funny you mention that oldr...

Tati admitted a couple of years ago that she had actually stopped believing in Santa when she was nine, (unbeknownst to us she woke up and saw us assembling a Santa present late on Christmas Eve) but continued to pretend that she believed for two more years, not because she thought she wouldn't get any presents, but because she thought she wouldn't get any more "Santa presents"...

She also said that the other reason she continued to pretend that she believed was because she knew how happy her "believing" made us...

Since then she's been a great little Santa's Helper, becoming a "co-conspirator" helping to make the Santa experience for her little brother so that he can have the same kind of experience she did when she was his age...

[Gob]

Tati admitted a couple of years ago that she had actually stopped believing in Santa when she was nine, (unbeknownst to us she woke up and saw us assembling a Santa present late on Christmas Eve) but continued to pretend that she believed for two more years, not because she thought she wouldn't get any presents, but because she thought she wouldn't get any more "Santa presents"...

Hatch still gets "Santa presents" even though she's 20 next month!