CHIPPIN' AWAY

[Lord Jim]

I can attest to the fact that prayer doesn't always work...

I've been praying for years that rube would become less of an asshole, and as anyone can see, that's been an epic fail...

[Long Run]

Well, it looks like science and technology are making inroads at eroding the God myth.

This is not the cause of less people associating with an organized religion.

[BoSoxGal]

This is not the cause of less people associating with an organized religion.

Fewer, not less.



Prayer doesn't work - I've prayed repeatedly since age 12 that I would win the lottery so I could give the money away to charitable causes, but I never win. Plenty of assholes who squander the money on drugs, women & material spoils for only themselves & their families/friends win, but never the founder of the bsg foundation for homeless puppies & hungry orphans.

[RayThom]

One person's "first-hand witness testimony" is another person's "anecdotal evidence." In essence, the very definition of faith, or something else entirely.

I once heard that a blind Stanley tool salesman, after talking directly with Jesus, picked up a hammer and saw. Hallelujah!


Thank you, I'm here all week.

[MajGenl.Meade]

One person's rejection of a first-hand witness testimony is another person's calling the first person a liar.

I didn't suggest anyone must of necessity believe that "God did it". What happened to me is that I refused to do it and challenged God. And smoking cigarettes (or anything else) simply vanished from my life immediately.

My conclusion from the facts is rather obvious.

You can believe what you like about that but don't call me a liar. And try to offer some other explanation, why don't you, instead of hiding behind sneers?

Love
Me

[MajGenl.Meade]

Sorry to pull a wesw but on another subject....

Just because we don't get what we want doesn't mean "prayer doesn't work". That is a category error.

God isn't some kind of genie, committed to granting us umpty-ump wishes just because he's there and we've "got" him.

Prayer is always answered. But the answer isn't always (or even mostly) the one we wanted in the first place. After all, "no" and "not yet" are as valid an answer as "yes"

[rubato]

One person's rejection of a first-hand witness testimony is another person's calling the first person a liar.

I didn't suggest anyone must of necessity believe that "God did it". What happened to me is that I refused to do it and challenged God. And smoking cigarettes (or anything else) simply vanished from my life immediately.

My conclusion from the facts is rather obvious.

You can believe what you like about that but don't call me a liar. And try to offer some other explanation, why don't you, instead of hiding behind sneers?

Love
Me

Are you a reliable witness? Did you acknowledge that like most smokers who eventually succeed you had tried to quit more than once? Did you mention that during that period you had prepared your self mentally with an increasing sense of self-disapprobation and admission that you could feel the injuries smoking had done to your body? Changes to your lung function, teeth, the smell of your clothing? And did you mention whether you had prayed about it before or was this the first time? You see that was the point of my saying that in the real world when you go from point A to Point C you go through all of the points in-between. Carson said that as a 14-year old, for the first time, he prayed about his anger and it was gone.*

I do not dispute the coincidence but can you be relied on to provide all of the facts?



yys,
rubato


* His story about breaking the end off of a knife by hitting a belt buckle is even less plausible. Have you ever broken the end off a knife, not by prying with it but by hitting something? Was the object you hit supported by a yielding surface like a human abdomen? If you suspended a belt buckle on an upright mattress could you hit it with a knife hard enough to break off the point? You see, nothing about his story adds up. Its a total lie.

[Lord Jim]

Prayer is always answered. But the answer isn't always (or even mostly) the one we wanted in the first place. After all, "no" and "not yet" are as valid an answer as "yes"

Here's one of my favorite prayer stories, (supposedly true):

A baseball player from Latin America had a ritual of crossing himself right before he would take his stance in the batter's box...

An opposing pitcher (who was getting tired of it) then stepped off the mound, crossed himself and yelled down to the batter:

"Okay, now He can't help both of us"...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Thanks, rubato. Yes, I promised the short version so you didn't get all the backstory which forms part of my testimony, including previous attempts to quit (mentioned in the short version), extreme withdrawal symptoms (mentioned), self-restriction of where I could and could not smoke (not mentioned but it's why I was on the porch-thing in a snowstorm which was mentioned), the smell (which bothered others but not me although bothering them bothered me), and a strong sense that I SHOULD want to give it up, which surely forms part of having tried to quit before.

There is a vast difference between feeling that one SHOULD NOT (in this case) do something when one actually WANTS TO CONTINUE doing it. A couple of times I tried to "quit for Jesus" (how naïve) since it was obvious a Christian should not smoke (harm to the body which you mentioned) and for a Christian quitting should be easy (wrong). But I never really meant it. I wanted to keep on smoking and it wasn't until I admitted it that it let go of me.

That's my experience. I did not quit smoking, any more than an alcoholic quits being an alcoholic. Smoking quitted me and I experienced not one physical or mental withdrawal symptom (not did my wife suffer from those as she had in the past).

To answer a direct question: no, I did not pray about it before and I didn't pray about it at that moment either - not as people use that word. It was more "if you want it, you do it because I'm not going to". Maybe that's prayer, as in 'speaking to God'

An objective person would not refer to it as "coincidence" (implying "unconnected"), but as "consequence".

If, as part of his speaking to God, Carson truly confronted his utter unwillingness, let alone inability, to control his anger, then I'm not surprised if it was immediately 'fixed'. Should I be?

[Econoline]

This is not the cause of less people associating with an organized religion.

Fewer, not less.

"Lesser", perhaps?



Prayer is one thing I've never understood about religion, which is why I never promise to pray for someone. (If I do, I'm lying...but "white lies" are okay sometimes, right?)

[BoSoxGal]

Prayer is one thing I've never understood about religion, which is why I never promise to pray for someone. (If I do, I'm lying...but "white lies" are okay sometimes, right?)

Very much so; usually when people ask me to pray for them it's only when they are ill or in some dire need, and I have no qualms about saying that I will, even though I don't. Unless you count thinking about them all the time and hoping they are going to be okay, which is what I'd be doing anyway. If there is a God, then God hears all your thoughts and it doesn't require getting down on bended knee (can't manage that these days!), being in a church, putting your hands together.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Very true, Econo and bsg. I attended a seminar at which the pastor/leader said, "I don't pray for your Auntie Joan's friend's daughter's boyfriend. Insincerity is no basis for communication to God".

And yep, getting on the knees, being in a church, putting one's hands together, signs of the cross, beads - that's all just meaningless rigmarole when it comes to prayer. IMO and based on there being no such requirements in the Bible

[dales]

Pray in Spirit and Truth, all the rest are but empty words and repetitive sayings that the heathen employ.

[wesw]

prayer is a deep and infinite topic. I wouldn t know where to begin.

thanking god is a large part of it. again, where to begin or end that topic?

I try to say the lord s prayer every night at least. I think it, or say it , or feel it, quite slowly. it is infinite and relevant everytime. so simple yet so deep. conducive to introspection. every line is what you need, no matter what you need.

just take the line about sustenanance

there is such a feeling of relief, and gratitude and peace in knowing that you will have your daily bread. once we had faith, even at the worst , the money was always there, we were able to sustain ourselves I don t know how. I have faith that it will be always be so as long as we "follow him" , not perfectly, not without stumbles..., but earnestly.

[RayThom]

Prayer is one thing I've never understood about religion, which is why I never promise to pray for someone. (If I do, I'm lying...but "white lies" are okay sometimes, right?)

I tell people who ask for prayers that I don't believe in them. I do, however, promise to keep that person in my thoughts and that's equal to or better as far as I'm concerned. No lies necessary -- white, or otherwise.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Understanding that you don't believe in prayer, I think you are quite right in how you respond.

[Big RR]

Well I do have experience with prayer and experiences along the lines that Jim has stated, but I honestly don't see the point in praying for someone else (especially one who is also praying for his/herself at least). It might make the friends and family feel better that others are thinking of them and sending them positive thoughts, but I just don't think god takes a poll and is more likely to respond positively to the prayers of a number than of 1. Jesus stated that god knows when every bird falls in the field, so clearly god would know what any person wants and needs and will act accordingly. Call out the "prayer circle" to pray en masse doesn't change that one bit IMHO.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well, Big RR... maybe it's that pesky Bible again?

James 5:16 ESV Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Ephesians 6:18 Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

Romans 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,

Philippians 1:9-11 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

Matthew 9:38 Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.”

Colossians 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison—

Job 42:10 And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

Acts 12:5 So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church

[Big RR]

Meade--you apparently misunderstood what I posted; I see nothing wrong with it; I just don't think more than one prayer is somehow superior or more desirable than a single prayer.

When I look at the verses you quoted, the prayers seem to fall into three categories--prayer for those who cannot or do not pray for themselves (like enemies and those who persecute you), general prayers for all (which would include those), and (to a much smaller extent) prayers for a particular person who might also be praying for the same things. Prayers for the lost to find their way or for the people or mankind in general are not what I was referring to in my post--it is the prayers for particular persons in that third category. And in those situations, I do not see any allusion to a benefit of the additional prayers except in the comfort it might grant to those being prayed for (paul and Peter); I conceded that such prayers may well be a comfort to those in need and their families in my post.

And that's the point IMHO; if we look at prayer as a way to communicate with god, it is a private act. Collective (or en masse) prayers may have some sort of palliative effect on those who understand that prayers are being made on their behalf, but this is more the value of the good will and kindred spirit engendered and less the value of prayer. Nothing wrong with it; and clearly some may benefit, but IMHO, its value is often misunderstood. Indeed, some churches (such as the RC church) have elevated such prayers and supplications to a large degree, encouraging people to have masses, novenas, etc. for those afflicted. If it is just done for the comfort of others, I have no problem with it; it is when people think the prayers of the many are more likely to be heard and answered that I just don't understand/agree with it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I honestly don't see the point in praying for someone else (especially one who is also praying for his/herself at least)

Oh, well I thought I understood that sentence. Seemed pretty clear to me. You don't see the point in praying for others. For some odd reason I think that would include all the people in the three cases that you parsed.

Interesting that your interpretation of Paul or Peter asking for the brothers and sisters to pray for them was just so they would feel a bit better. Presumably they prayed for others so they would feel better too. Guess I didn't know that Paul and Peter thought prayers didn't "work".

Of course, I agree with you that umpty ump prayers are not more effective than umpty ump minus 22. Personally I don't like group prayer - it often seems superficial and forced to me. I prefer Jesus' line about going alone and praying in one's closet (we know he didn't really mean a cupboard).

But you seem to be confusing two categories. What's wrong with you privately praying for someone else? Don't you do that already, without being asked?