Religion

[MajGenl.Meade]

... and Luke 22:36 teaches that Jesus wants to kill people for not believing in him??? Does it? It's a puzzling verse but whatever it means, what follows makes something clear: 49 And when those who were around him saw what would follow, they said, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” 50 And one of them struck the servant[h] of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him.

Whatever the swords were for (and he said two should be enough!) they certainly were not to compel unbelievers to submission.

I give you Surah 9 - well, not all of it but you can check it out. It's a direct instruction from Mohamed - not debatable (except we might argue about what "fight" means) in demanding submission and monetary exactions:

29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[Gob]

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Don't tell me meade, these are in the bits of the bible which don't have to be believed any more.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oh I believe they happened - but that's not Christianity is it? Your discussion should be with someone of the Jewish persuasion

But that aside, why are you not quoting the qu'ran and pointing out what Islam instructs its followers to do?

[Gob]

Cos I was replying to you!

[Lord Jim]

Going all rubato on history are you LJ?

So, you want to equate my understanding and knowledge of history with that of rubato's?

is that really where you want to go?....

[RayThom]

What good is the holy bible or the Qur'an if you can't distort its message to make it fit for you? That would surely fly in the face of all good fundamentalists. The sooner we understand and accept this the better off we will all be.

God is a concept by which we measure our pain. AMEN!

[Burning Petard]

Of course there is the real problem of just what DID Jesus say. Most of the oldest sources are in Greek, which most are pretty sure Jesus did not speak.
Translation is always iffy, specially for stuff that is metaphorical or poetic. Then work it thru several different languages and there is lots of room for discussion.

At least the followers of 'the final prophet' have limited that by keeping it all to one language, but even then there is the question of changes in meaning over time.

I have lots of respect for those individual who admit to being 'buffet Christians'; that is, picking and choosing which parts of their scripture to accept as appropriate for their own guide to living.

Me, I long ago threw out the prohibition on mixing different fabrics in my clothing. And I have never nailed anyone's ear to the door post.

snailgate.

[RayThom]

What Jesus is on your wall?

HISTORIC.........................WESTERN

[Gob]

BUDDY!

[MajGenl.Meade]

For Gob.... no, you were not responding to me at all. My asked for this:

Show me an example of Christ teaching that his followers should force people into faith, take up the sword to kill, levy fines upon unbelievers until they feel "subdued" and other similar activities?

Your message quoted passages of the Old Testament which were not teachings of Christ. Thanks for not playing.

For LJ... well, if you go immediately to ad hominems and mockery, while ignoring historical fact as to what the Qu'ran instructs the faithful to do, then a comparison to rubato's technique is not wholly amiss. (Or perhaps is Holy a miss?). Did you watch that video I included? It explains why IS kills Moslems - because it regards them as apostate, non-Moslems. There's instructions in the Qu'ran on taking care of those backsliders.

This is not at all the same as the recording in the Bible of historical facts about the nation of Israel. Christ and hence Christianity have a fundamentally different message. Stoning for adultery? No, because anyone who even looks at another person's spouse with lust in their heart (or any married person who does so) is committing adultery in their heart. Therefore, all have sinned and the cure isn't stoning but salvation by God through Jesus.

The Qu'ran on the other hand makes categorical and ongoing instruction in which the prophet Mohamed provides outright requirements on all the faithful forever - not tempered by any thought at all of God's love. For fun, is there anything in the book about God and love? I don't know the answer to that but I suspect it's maybe difficult to find

Just to show fairness, Luke 14:23 is a verse in the NT that caused some trouble. In the parable Jesus tells, the ruler of the wedding feast (the groom) is ticked off because the people he invited to come (that is, his Jewish people) don't show up. So he sends out servants to the boonies (to non-Jews) to "compel them to come in". I think it was Augustine who thought the word "compel" was sufficient excuse to wage war on some heresy and execute other Christians. However, the more common understanding is that Jesus was explaining that compulsion consists of the irresistible exposure of Gentiles to God's truth and God's activity in convicting people of sin, hence leaving no alternative but to accept salvation. (The groom "compels" people to respond not by the sword but by offering something so wonderful that outsiders will gratefully come and not reject the gift).

Interpretation can certainly cause mistakes - even horrific mistakes - but Christ himself never teaches the kinds of things that the Qu'ran does.

[Big RR]

Meade--don't forget Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Somehow, I doubt you would be as sanguine about the same quote if it were in the Koran.

Just as we should not interpret Jesus' message by an out of context biblical quote, IMHO we should do the same with any quoting of the Koran. which is why I defer to scholars in both cases.

The Qu'ran on the other hand makes categorical and ongoing instruction in which the prophet Mohamed provides outright requirements on all the faithful forever - not tempered by any thought at all of God's love. For fun, is there anything in the book about God and love? I don't know the answer to that but I suspect it's maybe difficult to find

Yet I would imagine it is there, at least based upon my understanding of the statement of people who have studied it.

[Lord Jim]

Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism

Here are the top ten ways that Islamic law and tradition forbid terrorism (some of these points are reworked from previous postings):

1. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

2. If the motive for terrorism is religious, it is impermissible in Islamic law. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people. The Qur’an says, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). Note that this verse was revealed in Medina in 622 AD or after and was never abrogated by any other verse of the Quran. Islam’s holy book forbids coercing people into adopting any religion. They have to willingly choose it.

3. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

4. In the Islamic law of war, not just any civil engineer can declare or launch a war. It is the prerogative of the duly constituted leader of the Muslim community that engages in the war. Nowadays that would be the president or prime minister of the state, as advised by the mufti or national jurisconsult.

5. The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

6. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power. The principle of forbidding the spreading of terror in the land is based on the Qur’an (Surah al-Ma’ida 5:33–34). Prominent [pdf] Muslim legal scholar Sherman Jackson writes, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . . .”

7. Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent. The Prophet Muhammad at one point gave 4 months notice.

8. The Prophet Muhammad counseled doing good to those who harm you and is said to have commanded, “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

9. The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.”[5:8]

10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): “Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.”

In other words, the Quran promises Christians and Jews along with Muslims that if they have faith and works, they need have no fear in the afterlife. It is not saying that non-Muslims go to hell– quite the opposite.

When speaking of the 7th-century situation in the Muslim city-state of Medina, which was at war with pagan Mecca, the Quran notes that the polytheists and some Arabian Jewish tribes were opposed to Islam, but then goes on to say:

5:82. ” . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers [Muslims] those who say: ‘We are Christians.’ That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.”

So the Quran not only does not urge Muslims to commit violence against Christians, it calls them “nearest in love” to the Muslims! The reason given is their piety, their ability to produce holy persons dedicated to God, and their lack of overweening pride.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic ... orism.html

[Crackpot]

Meade are you claiming the Old Testament is invalid and doesn't apply?

[Burning Petard]

"doubt you would be as sanguine about the same quote if it were in the Koran."

Perhaps. "sanguine" has a root meaning of bloody. Current meaning of 'optimistic' goes to theory for health base on the four humors. Blood was one humor and lots of blood meant your physical being promoted a feeling of well-being and thus optimism.

[Big RR]

Well, we must keep our collective sense of humor.

[Econoline]

Jim - Thanks for that quote and the link. Very informative. If you go to the link, the very first comment (by one Joel Roth) after Mr. Cole's article is one that should perhaps also be quoted here:

If some Christians are hypocrites with regard to their own religious tenets (e.g. Thou shalt not kill) perhaps they will project that hypocrisy onto followers of other religions. The way it works is that a lot of political decision makers are either hypocrites, or can find ideological loopholes to justify values and behaviors that are tribal (us/them) rather than spiritual or religious. Each tribe buys into the mythology they maintain about their own principles, while rejecting the mythologies of other tribes.

[MajGenl.Meade]

We must stop blaming ourselves for Islamist terrorism
The Brussels attacks were followed by the usual question: what did we do to make this happen?

By Douglas Murray
6:29PM GMT 25 Mar 2016

The real answer to why it’s happening is right under our noses. Consider Nicola Sturgeon. After November’s terror attacks in Paris, Scotland’s First Minister led the now traditional sympathy delegation to the local mosque. Given that politicians like Ms Sturgeon insist that Islamist terror has nothing to do with Islam, isn’t it strange that their first port of call after any Islamist attack is always the local mosque? At Scotland’s biggest mosque – Glasgow Central – Sturgeon gave the traditional speech condemning “bigotry and prejudice”, by which she meant “Islamophobia”.

Yesterday, the Imam of that mosque was in the news. Why? Had he been the victim, post-Brussels, of an “Islamophobic attack” by Scottish racists? No – Imam Maulana Habib Ur Rehman had been caught praising an Islamist terrorist, specifically Mumtaz Qadri, who last month was hanged in Pakistan for murdering Salman Taseer – a governor who opposed blasphemy laws. In a set of messages on social media the Glasgow Imam said, among other things: “I cannot hide my pain today. A true Muslim was punished for doing which [sic] the collective will of the nation failed to carry out.” The mosque has said that its Imam’s praise for the assassins of secularists was “taken out of context”.

Did Ms Sturgeon know the radical politics of the Imam of the mosque she went grandstanding to? Of course not. Like most of our politicians and media, she lacks the knowledge to know what questions to ask and – more unforgivably – it appears she doesn’t actually want to know. Because if she and others did ask the right questions, then they might get answers they wouldn’t like.

The problem of Islamic extremism is caused – astonishingly enough – by Islamic extremism. As France, Belgium and many other societies can now attest, the larger your Muslim population, the larger your Islamic extremism problem. Not because most Muslims are terrorists. Obviously not. But because that “small minority” we always hear about grows proportionally bigger the larger the community is. What matters is the numbers, the density (thus their ability to hide and be hidden) and the type of Islam that is followed. Given Europe’s current demographic trajectory this poses a pretty terrifying problem which we’ll have to face up to one day. But in the meantime it remains so much more comfortable to blame the only people we’re kidding. Ourselves.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... orism.html

[Big RR]

Substitute jew for moslem and synagogue for mosque and you will get a document vaguely reminiscent of anti-Semitic documents of a few decades back. Exaggerating the differences between "them" and "us", claiming that "they" will hide an protect the more militant among "them", claiming that those in power refuse to face up to the problem "they" pose, and denigrating any effort to reach out to the nonmilitant among "them" promotes little more than hatred and mistrust.

And FWIW, while the article mentions the Imam of "that mosque", it does not mention what the Imams position was. In islam, imams are prayer leaders and in many mosques are just lay people who do those tasks (indeed, even women can be imams and lead women in prayer). The shia have a different definition of imams as being someone with some sort of religious authority, but then each imam speaks for himself, so the views of one imam have as much bearing on islam and the pastor of Westboro Baptist have on christianity. But then it is much easier to just say "see what the imam of that mosque said", then describe who the imam was and what exactly was said.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Of course the article is wrong - naturally - couldn't be correct. Got to disagree. Can't have that kind of thing going on - let's bring in Jews (shorthand for "the writer must be a Nazi but I'm not going to mention that word")

Oops sorry - it got only one thing right: "Not because most Muslims are terrorists. Obviously not."

Other than that - can't be correct. Just cannot.

Mr Rehman was challenged over Qadri on social media by a member of his congregation who said (Qadri) was a “murderer”.

Mr Rehman responded: “According to some he was a murder[er] but according to many others he did what was the collective responsibility of the ummat [the Muslim community]. Just [as] when France was occupied by the Nazis, French did all they had to do to protect their nation. They were national heroes.”

Charity watchdog OSCR has been investigating the mosque’s governance for months. A preliminary report last year was hugely critical of the mosque’s historic and conservative leadership.

[Big RR]

OK Meade, no sense discussing this with you it seems.