Wrestling with his faith

[The Hen]

I agree with his decision

I am sorry it has cost him so much.

I can think of no physical sport where I believe men and women should compete against one another.

He doesn't have to be a pillow-biter or afraid of being beaten by a girl to uphold his principles.

[rubato]

My wife agrees with you. Me too.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Meade--I have to agree with Gob; where in the bible is a male wrestling against a female even mentioned?

FWIW, if he didn't want to do what the sport reasonably required, for whatever reason, then he should have stepped aside; one does not get to make one's own rules. But yu are right,he does not have to be called names for his belief; even "traitor" is a bit much, although he did let the team down by refusing to play by the rules.

edited to add: Hen, would intergender softball bother you? Why do you believe a male and female should never compete in the same sporting game? We do have male cheerleaders, so why not female football players?

[MajGenl.Meade]

My goodness Big RR and Gob, you are both far beyond "well it isn't written in the Bible so......" are you not? I certainly am.

If you do not understand that men beating up on women is unmanly, ungentlemanly and not in accordance with the spirit of Christ, then so be it. If you do not understand that a young man intent on wrestling might be reluctant to grab the private parts of a female (ha ha ho ho leaving that aside); if you simply do not understand the inappropriatness of it..... well, my flabber has never been more gasted. But of course you are entitle to you rather unparental opinions.

Of course, a woman beating up a man is not good either but the frequency is less

Cheers
Meade

PS and Big RR he did step aside you see. When confronted with the reality of a girl doing a sport that should not be co-ed, he gave her the contest. It's rather nice isn't it - like giving up a seat to pregnant lady on a bus or holding open a door. Oops! Not in the Bible! I'd better cut those out!

[Big RR]

Since when is wrestling "beating up"? It is a sport in which the competitors try to pin each other, not hurt or beat each other up. And FWIW, I don't think private parts of males are grabbed often, or that even if they are, most young men would be reluctant to do so.

And why should the sport not be coed; because you say so? Clearly you admit it is not in the bible nor a tenet of the christian faith (at least you have advanced no argument that it is other than your bald assertion that his "views as a christian" say it is inappropriate). You,indeed, link it to common etiquette, which is fine but is not how the rules of a sport are made. Agin, if he refused to wrestle a black or jewish young man, would you similarly say those are his views and the sport should accommodate him? When one chooses to participate in a sport, (s)he agrees to abide by the rules of the governing body--if the person has some compunction against doing so, they can leave. But walking away in the championship because one does not want to wrestle another qualifier (for whatever reason) is letting one's teammates down, pure and simple.

Face it, a girl winning 20 matches in his weight class would be known in the wrestling community and I can't believe he didn't know he would eventually end up wrestling her; if he didn't want to do this, he could have chosen not to wrestle. But he went through the season, took up a place at the championships (had he not gone, someone who agreed to abide by the rules would not have had to remain home). He's entitled to his beliefs, but I'm not going to celebrate his selfishness.

And as for "not in the bible", many rules of etiquette and even laws are not, so what? I never said things not in the bible should not be observed, nor did I bring his religious beliefs into question--you did.

[MajGenl.Meade]

You think it is not inappropriate for men to wrestle women (ha ha etc) and I think it is. I would not have allowed my daughter to do so; I would think less of my grand-daughter if she did so. I would not have allowed my son to do so; I would think less of my grand-son if he does so.

The young man said it was his view as Christian that wrestling against a girl was wrong. You brought the Bible into it (you and Gob) and asked where it mentioned wrestling males wresting against females - so don't criticize me for responding. Blacks and jews have nothing to do with it. If you want to call it "etiquette" then while there is a presumption that males should not grope females (ha ha ha) there is no such etiquette indicating that males should not grope blacks or jews (ha ha ha).

Get it straight - boys should not wrestle girls (tee hee) period (tee hee) becuase it is wrong, inappropriate and unacceptable. You may be mired in the same confused political correctness as the people responsible for permitting the situation to arise but I am not.

How'd you feel about boxing? Should men be hammering women in the ring - is that what we teach young men these days?

I'm done - but thanks for bearing with me
Meade

[Sean]

Jumping in here...

Meade, to you it is wrong, inappropriate and unacceptable (which is fair enough) but shouldn't others (especially the girls involved) be just as entitled to their views?

Hypothetically, your grand-daughter could be a talented wrestler who was eager to prove herself against the traditionally stronger boys. It would be a great shame if she couldn't achieve this because she was worried about her grandfather thinking less of her. It seems to me like the kind of situation where a girl might end up thinking less of her grandfather for holding her back and not allowing her to have her own opinions...

Oh and boxing is a bit different... that aim of boxing is to hurt your opponent; preferably to the point of unconsciousness. You shouldn't really compare it to wrestling.

[MajGenl.Meade]

And why should I not compare a girl's desire to compete in boxing to wrestling? If you want to argue on principle and criticize where I set the bar, why should you be permitted to set a bar yourself? Just depends on whose ox is getting gored (or pinned) I guess.

And the boy involved should be entitled to his view too without being compared to a racist Nazi. Not by you of course, Sean.

Let's go back to that other scenario. A boy who loves to wrestle, a good team member, one that the team relies upon to win meet after meet - he finds out that some do-gooder arsehole has permitted a girl to compete in the coming season. Now according to Big RR, he must immediately quit wrestling, tell his team to go screw themselves in every match to come - because one day he might - he might - have to wrestle this girl and his conscience will not allow him to do that.

I don't know a teenager smart enough to figure out that reasoning - or stupid enough to act upon it

Meade

[Joe Guy]

Now according to Big RR, he must immediately quit wrestling, tell his team to go screw themselves in every match to come - because one day he might - he might - have to wrestle this girl and his conscience will not allow him to do that.

In effect, that is exactly what the boy has done. His team can no longer rely on him because he may have to wrestle a girl in the future and will refuse.

[rubato]

IIR at that age the chance of having an involuntary, inappropriate, and publicly observable sexual response was pretty high.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

rubato--that could happen while wrestling a guy as wel, and be much more embarrassing.

Meade--please tell me where I said he must tell the team to go screw itself? All I said is that, if he was not willing to participate by the rules, for whatever reason, he should not participate in the sport. That's it, plain and simple. I've never compared him to a "racist nazi" (your words), nor did I bring religion into the discussion (you did). and again, comparing wrestling to beating someone up is ridiculous--dd you get all your views on wrestling from the WWF? Watch a real (high school or college) wrestling match and you'll see that is not the case.

And as for your characterizing my opinion as "unparental", I won't respond in kind except to not that there is an orifice behind you private parts where you can shove your opinion. Don't bother responding, I have no interest in discussing a serious issue with someone who so quickly resorts to childish attacks. Rant away; maybe you'll even convince yourself that some care about what you have to say--I don't.

[Gob]

I'll say it again. This kid was NOT forbidden to wrestle by his religion, but by his own interpretation of what he "should" and "should not" do.

We don't know whether this was out of respect for females, or out of not considering them worthy opponents, or out of some misinterpretation of what he should believe, or out of fear he may get a boner.

But my thanks go to Meade, for bringing this discussion down from the puerile hight which I started it at.

[rubato]

rubato--that could happen while wrestling a guy as wel, and be much more embarrassing.... "

That would be statistically less likely but an equally good reason not to wrestle.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

I'll say it again. This kid was NOT forbidden to wrestle by his religion, but by his own interpretation of what he "should" and "should not" do.
..."

That is how 'personal morality' works.

Get over it.

yrs,
rubato

[Sean]

And why should I not compare a girl's desire to compete in boxing to wrestling? If you want to argue on principle and criticize where I set the bar, why should you be permitted to set a bar yourself? Just depends on whose ox is getting gored (or pinned) I guess.

I'm not setting a bar. You made the comparison, I simply pointed out that it was neither a fair nor valid comparison.
As to why I feel that you shouldn't compare the two, I think I explained it rather clearly in my last post.

[Big RR]

I'll say it again. This kid was NOT forbidden to wrestle by his religion, but by his own interpretation of what he "should" and "should not" do.
..."

That is how 'personal morality' works.

Get over it.

yrs,
rubato

Well, if we each can choose to decide what rules we want to follow and which ones we don't, there can be no sports or any other competition. Let's say I object to baseball using the number 3 for the number of strikes which leave you out and the number of outs which retire your side, because of the trinity of god. So what? Is that any different from just not liking a particular rule.

If one chooses not to follow the rules, for whatever reason, (s)he cannot play. Perhaps if there are large numbers of like minded individuals, the rulemaking body should take it into account (like in scheduling games, e.g.), but ne cannot demand that a sport conform to his/her view.

[Lord Jim]

In reviewing this rhetorical wrestling match, it seems to me that Meade has pinned the lot of you....

I have to wonder if, (not on this board of course, where anyone claiming to act on the basis of their religious principles can count on being held up to scorn and ridicule without regard to their particular faith...the folks here are pretty equal opportunity in that regard) this boy had been a Muslim rather than a Christian if the narrative in the mainstream media on this might have been different....

Would the story have been about the failure of the high school wrestling organization to show sufficient "sensitivity" and "punishing" the lad for his religious beliefs, rather than about the kid who was "using" his religion as an "excuse" to cover up for his bigoted sexism, fear of losing to a girl, etc.,?

[@meric@nwom@n]

his boy had been a Muslim rather than a Christian if the narrative in the mainstream media on this might have been different....

My money is on "Yeah it would have been different."

I also wonder if there was a women's wrestling league and a young man wanted to participate what the dialog would be like.

[Scooter]

If he had been a Muslim, the narrative would have been about how he was unwilling to adapt his foreign, sexist, religious notions to a modern, secular American society.

And if all the sexes were reversed in this story there wouldn't be a story to tell. There are incredibly few sports which cater pretty much exclusively to girls/women without a boys/men's equivalent. Perhaps if there was a boy who wanted to join a synchonized swimming team....

[MajGenl.Meade]

It was insensitive and intemperate of me to use the term “unparental” in connection with Big RR and Gob. I do apologise for that. I should more accurately have said: “IMO good parents would not permit a girl to wrestle boys” which is what was meant.

Having had my views as well as those of the young man suggested to be similar to those of Nazis and racists, it may well be asked what on earth a “childish attack” really is?

Now to clear up some incorrect statements:

1. Who introduced religion?

Big RR says: “nor did I bring religion into the discussion (you did)”
Big RR said Feb 25:… other than your bald assertion that his “views as a christian” say it is inappropriate”

Original post:

As a matter of conscience and my faith I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner. -- Joel Northrup

2. The racist Nazi conspiracy

Big RR says: I've never compared him to a "racist nazi" (your words)
Big RR Feb 25:

if he refused to wrestle a black or jewish young man, would you similarly say those are his views and the sport should accommodate him?

Big RR: Feb 25:

Years ago, it would have been the kid refusing to wrestle a black or a jew; same crap, new target.

3. Did the kid screw the team? (Which by the way was not directed at Big RR alone)

Big RR says: please tell me where I said he must tell the team to go screw itself? All I said is that, if he was not willing to participate by the rules, for whatever reason, he should not participate in the sport.

Big RR Feb 25:

He's entitled to his beliefs, but I'm not going to celebrate his selfishness

4. WWF WTF?
Big RR says: Did you get all your views on wrestling from the WWF? Watch a real (high school or college) wrestling match and you'll see that is not the case.

I say: perhaps you missed where I said my son played football and wrestled. I was involved enough in high school wrestling, training and matches, to have quite a good understanding of what is involved in pinning an opponent - and the pain and injuries that can result.


Sean: perhaps I didn’t explain properly. The principle involved is either that the girl alone should decide – or that my view or your view or someone else’s view should prevail. You choose to draw the line at boxing. The grounds that “they might get hurt” are precisely those on which you say I am not allowed to draw the line at wrestling. (I agree they shouldn’t box, of course). Your decision is no more or less arbitrary than my own. It is just a different sport that you would deny to females.

Gob: you are way too sensible to argue that if a thing is not mentioned in the Bible or “forbidden” by a religion it must be permitted. The application of what is taught in the Bible and in Christian churches to how we live our lives is always going to be “interpretation”. It’s the same way that non-believers operate – by interpreting a set of information.

You may find opinion about girls wrestling against boys divided amongst Christians. I contend that it would more often be regarded with disfavour, as a “wrong” thing for a young man or woman to do. That may be in incorrect perception – perhaps most religionists these days accept all manner of sin as being acceptable. The less that people believe the Bible is the word of God, that is, the closer a “christian” is to atheism, the more likely they are to dismiss sin as irrelevant.

Sincerely
Meade

PS FWIW if he had been a Moslem, I for one would have supported his decision. Still Scooter's point is summed up by the joke: A man saved a child from being savaged by a dog. The mother said "That's an American hero!" and the man said "Actually, I'm French". The mother says "Well it was a very Christian thing to do". The man says "Actually I'm a Moslem". Next day the local newspaper headline read: Islamic Terrorist Assaults American Dog".