could that possibly be because teachers aren't paid nearly what they would earn in the private sector?
not to mention post K-12 teaching has none of the requiremnets you're speaking of.
What Value Education?
Re: What Value Education?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: What Value Education?
In school whilst preparing to head off to university to study physics, I was advised by my physics teacher to not become a teacher (something I fancied doing). It was good advice. The money is appalling and these days you can't even slap a naughty kid. (In fact, the only time you are allowed to slap a child is when it is on fire!) There are some teachers of "heavy sciences" who forego large paychecks for the pleasure of teaching - I take my hat off to them. In the UK that number is understandably dwindling.
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?
Re: What Value Education?
Isn't it amazing that Dave claims that no alternatives exist to full-time teacher preparation, and yet here is but one example of such an alternative.
And as someone already said, the biggest barrier to getting more math and science majors into the classroom is that they can earn several multiples of a teacher's salary in the private sector.
And as someone already said, the biggest barrier to getting more math and science majors into the classroom is that they can earn several multiples of a teacher's salary in the private sector.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose
-
oldr_n_wsr
- Posts: 10838
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am
Re: What Value Education?
I figure they are the same thing. Your BSc in Electrical Engineering is the same as our BSEE which is Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering.thestoat wrote:I've never heard of a BS degree at a university (or poly) in the UK. It has always been BSc for bachelor of science. And I haven't heard of BSEE - oldr, is that American? When I was studying, even 'lec enges (as we called them) were awarded a BSc in electrical engineering, rather than a BSEE. That may well be different these days of course, and I am only talking about the UK system. Not trying to be a pedant - honest. As you were
Here on Long Island teachers make a very good living. Top teachers (20 years) make about $115,000, not including a benefit package that is the envy of most in the private sector.Crackpot wrote:could that possibly be because teachers aren't paid nearly what they would earn in the private sector?
not to mention post K-12 teaching has none of the requiremnets you're speaking of.
Annual raises and "step" increases (basically guaranteed raises for those who have not reached the top salary). Now with the fiscal climate finally hiting the teachers through layoffs in some districts and threatened layoffs in others, the teachers unions are finally starting to do some "give backs" which are anything but. What they are agreeing to is delaying raises for a year or more (but not the step increases) and nothing is being done about the pensions and lifetime medical benefits which are one of the biggest costs (next to salaries) in a school budget.
Re: What Value Education?
I'm curious what exactly "a benefit package that is the envy of most in the private sector" constitutes? Could we get some specifics, please?
On a similar note, I'd like to hear from other board members -- whether public or private sector, what kind of benefits they get.
I'll start: I pay 10% of my monthly health insurance premium, the firm pays the other 90%. They also offer a cafeteria plan, so those payments are pre-tax, as are a certain amount of my deductible and co-pays (based on my election). I have no pension, or 401K matching, but I get an annual (discretionary) "profit sharing" deposit into my 401K that always comes in between 4-5% of my salary. I have paid-for life insurance (benefit at 2.5X my salary). I also have paid vacation/sick/personal time. As with most law firms, there is a set amount I'm given, but it is not policed for the attorneys. Salary is negotiated individually, raises and bonuses are discretionary thereafter. My firm employs 30 lawyers and probably 50 total employees/owners.
In my town, the teachers (and all municipal employees) pay 25% of their health insurance premiums, and retirees pay 50%. The pension levels are set by state statute, and are related to time of tenure, last jobs held, and classification of those jobs.
On a similar note, I'd like to hear from other board members -- whether public or private sector, what kind of benefits they get.
I'll start: I pay 10% of my monthly health insurance premium, the firm pays the other 90%. They also offer a cafeteria plan, so those payments are pre-tax, as are a certain amount of my deductible and co-pays (based on my election). I have no pension, or 401K matching, but I get an annual (discretionary) "profit sharing" deposit into my 401K that always comes in between 4-5% of my salary. I have paid-for life insurance (benefit at 2.5X my salary). I also have paid vacation/sick/personal time. As with most law firms, there is a set amount I'm given, but it is not policed for the attorneys. Salary is negotiated individually, raises and bonuses are discretionary thereafter. My firm employs 30 lawyers and probably 50 total employees/owners.
In my town, the teachers (and all municipal employees) pay 25% of their health insurance premiums, and retirees pay 50%. The pension levels are set by state statute, and are related to time of tenure, last jobs held, and classification of those jobs.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: What Value Education?
What are these "benefits", I'm being a bit thick here I suppose, but can you post what are considered benefits of a job in the USA?Guinevere wrote:
On a similar note, I'd like to hear from other board members -- whether public or private sector, what kind of benefits they get.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: What Value Education?
If I were working at my old job (public sector):
Salary would be about 20% less than a private sector job with equivalent skills, duties and experience. Pension plan based on 90 factor - eligible for full pension when age + years of service = 90, pays a pension of 2% per year of service until 65, then reduced to 1.3% (when the difference is made up by Canada Pension Plan, our equivalent of Social Security). Funded by employer and employee each paying 6.5% of salary up to about $45,000 and 9.2% on remainder. Health benefits cover only those costs not covered by public health insurance, employer is self-insured and pays 90% of prescription drugs, 85% of basic dental and 50% of major restorative, $350 every two years for vision care, a laundry list of coverages for miscellaneous services not covered by public health insurance. Dependent coverage for very modest additional premiums. Vacation begins at 4 weeks per year and steps up until reaching a max of 7 weeks after 26 years. Sick leave is 6 days at full pay each year and 120 additional days at 75%. Employer-paid life insurance equal to one year's salary with option for employee to purchase additional two years' salary of coverage at employer's group rate (i.e. really cheap). No medical exams or disclosures required for any health or life insurance coverages enrolled in within 30 days of start date (or marriage to or birth of dependent, etc.).
Since I am no longer employed due to disability:
Wage loss replacement of 66-2/3% of my salary, adjusted for inflation annually. All insurance coverages continue, employer picks up all my share of premiums. Employer picks up my share of pension contributions.
When I retire:
Pension payments as above, all health insurance coverages will continue until I die.
Salary would be about 20% less than a private sector job with equivalent skills, duties and experience. Pension plan based on 90 factor - eligible for full pension when age + years of service = 90, pays a pension of 2% per year of service until 65, then reduced to 1.3% (when the difference is made up by Canada Pension Plan, our equivalent of Social Security). Funded by employer and employee each paying 6.5% of salary up to about $45,000 and 9.2% on remainder. Health benefits cover only those costs not covered by public health insurance, employer is self-insured and pays 90% of prescription drugs, 85% of basic dental and 50% of major restorative, $350 every two years for vision care, a laundry list of coverages for miscellaneous services not covered by public health insurance. Dependent coverage for very modest additional premiums. Vacation begins at 4 weeks per year and steps up until reaching a max of 7 weeks after 26 years. Sick leave is 6 days at full pay each year and 120 additional days at 75%. Employer-paid life insurance equal to one year's salary with option for employee to purchase additional two years' salary of coverage at employer's group rate (i.e. really cheap). No medical exams or disclosures required for any health or life insurance coverages enrolled in within 30 days of start date (or marriage to or birth of dependent, etc.).
Since I am no longer employed due to disability:
Wage loss replacement of 66-2/3% of my salary, adjusted for inflation annually. All insurance coverages continue, employer picks up all my share of premiums. Employer picks up my share of pension contributions.
When I retire:
Pension payments as above, all health insurance coverages will continue until I die.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose
Re: What Value Education?
This should please you Dave...
Radical plans to fast-track the sacking of almost 20,000 incompetent teachers have caused fury among unions.
Education Secretary Michael Gove yesterday unveiled proposals to enable heads to axe bad teachers within a term, rather than the current average of more than a year.
He will also stop the ‘dodge’ of teachers putting off disciplinary proceedings by going on sick leave with full pay, by allowing hearings to be held during this absence.
And incompetent teachers will no longer be able to move from school to school as heads will be granted access to the ‘performance data’ of potential staff.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1NJu3xSk5
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
-
oldr_n_wsr
- Posts: 10838
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am
Re: What Value Education?
Paying less than 5% of health insurance premiums throughout their lives (some pay none, depending on district and contract negotiated). Pension based on your last 3 years salary average at 75% of that average salary. You can retire after 20 years. Salaries are set by union negotiation. Raises are frequently over 3% per year and step increases are over 5% again union negotiated. Step increases only pertain to those teachers not making the maximum which in my district is in the neighborhood of $120,000 and are automatic meaning even if they don't have a current contract, the previous contract stays in effect until a new one is negotiated (which is very convenient in this economic climate as there would probably have to be major changes to the detriment of the teachers so no negotiating is going on as the status quo is probably better than any new deal they might get). Holidays are all federal holidays with a few religious observations thrown in and a witner recess and spring recess (a week each). Vacation is about a week of June and all of July and August."a benefit package that is the envy of most in the private sector"
Re: What Value Education?
Same here. Most of the benefits listed are not benefits here. They come as standard. I work for a private institution which operates under Government rules for renumeration and benefits. The 17% superannuation, salary packaging and 17.5% loading on rec leave seem like benefits but could also be standard in this sector for all I know.Gob wrote:What are these "benefits", I'm being a bit thick here I suppose, but can you post what are considered benefits of a job in the USA?Guinevere wrote:
On a similar note, I'd like to hear from other board members -- whether public or private sector, what kind of benefits they get.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?
-
oldr_n_wsr
- Posts: 10838
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am
Re: What Value Education?
Don't know about other states but in NY there is no law that says a company must provide vacation time, sick time, any kind of pension or 401K system. These are considered "benefits" and while many companies offer varying degrees of these, they are not required to do so.
Re: What Value Education?
Some specifics:
I am a newly-hired employee at a large, successful private company. Benefits are typical of the breed. For individual health benefits, I would only have to pay something on the order of $10-15 a month. For family it would be closer to $100. The package is OK, but not great. My co-pay for my PCP is $20, and $40 for a specialist. The company contributes a maximum of 3% of my salary to the 401k - one-half of what I contribute. As a relatively senior person, I started with 3 weeks vacation plus 2 personal days, which won't ever go to 4 weeks, as I will retire before that would kick in at 10 years. There is no bonus, and I was told to expect about a 2-3% raise.
My daughter-in-law was recently hired by my local school district as a language teacher. She has a Masters from Notre Dame in her language. She started at a little over $40k. SHe gets 2-1/2 months vacation, plus 8 additional days during the school year. She pays $10 for full health benefits for herself and my son (who is a free-lance writer). She pays $10 for an office visit, $20 for a specialist. At ten years service, her salary will have more than doubled (2011 dollars), owing to a substantial increase at that point of the payscale. In the meantime, she will get a "step increase" and a cost-of-living increase every year, regardless of performance. Her retirement is not guaranteed right now because they are negotiating a "different" arrangement for new hires, but those who are currently retiring are getting 80% of their top pay after 25 years, and their medical benefits are fully paid for life (a huge expense for the time between retirement and age 65). The top of the scale is currently about $110k, for a teacher with more than 18 years and a masters degree.
Senior engineers for my company (and my previous employer) generally make from $70k to 95k or so a year, with four weeks vacation. They work considerable overtime with no compensation, as a matter of routine.
My local school district is one of the top 10 in the state as far as teacher compensation, and there are rural counties where teachers remain "under-compensated." But it should be obvious that there would be thousands upon thousands of experienced accountants, engineers, and othe rprofessionals who would welcome the opportunity to change careers into secondary school teaching - even taking extraordinary measures to add credentials - if it were possible. But as I wrote above, there is the obstacle of a year of non-employment while you take courses and student teach, there is no guarantee of finding a teaching job, and there is no provision for hiring a new teacher at a mid-level point on the payscale, regardless of how qualified he or she might be.
As perverse as this is, EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT in the United States is different, and even the school districts within one state will vary all over the lot. This explains why the U.S. posters here have completely different views of "teacher compensation." My views are obviously colored by the local situation, which I believe is typical but not universal here in the U.S.
I am a newly-hired employee at a large, successful private company. Benefits are typical of the breed. For individual health benefits, I would only have to pay something on the order of $10-15 a month. For family it would be closer to $100. The package is OK, but not great. My co-pay for my PCP is $20, and $40 for a specialist. The company contributes a maximum of 3% of my salary to the 401k - one-half of what I contribute. As a relatively senior person, I started with 3 weeks vacation plus 2 personal days, which won't ever go to 4 weeks, as I will retire before that would kick in at 10 years. There is no bonus, and I was told to expect about a 2-3% raise.
My daughter-in-law was recently hired by my local school district as a language teacher. She has a Masters from Notre Dame in her language. She started at a little over $40k. SHe gets 2-1/2 months vacation, plus 8 additional days during the school year. She pays $10 for full health benefits for herself and my son (who is a free-lance writer). She pays $10 for an office visit, $20 for a specialist. At ten years service, her salary will have more than doubled (2011 dollars), owing to a substantial increase at that point of the payscale. In the meantime, she will get a "step increase" and a cost-of-living increase every year, regardless of performance. Her retirement is not guaranteed right now because they are negotiating a "different" arrangement for new hires, but those who are currently retiring are getting 80% of their top pay after 25 years, and their medical benefits are fully paid for life (a huge expense for the time between retirement and age 65). The top of the scale is currently about $110k, for a teacher with more than 18 years and a masters degree.
Senior engineers for my company (and my previous employer) generally make from $70k to 95k or so a year, with four weeks vacation. They work considerable overtime with no compensation, as a matter of routine.
My local school district is one of the top 10 in the state as far as teacher compensation, and there are rural counties where teachers remain "under-compensated." But it should be obvious that there would be thousands upon thousands of experienced accountants, engineers, and othe rprofessionals who would welcome the opportunity to change careers into secondary school teaching - even taking extraordinary measures to add credentials - if it were possible. But as I wrote above, there is the obstacle of a year of non-employment while you take courses and student teach, there is no guarantee of finding a teaching job, and there is no provision for hiring a new teacher at a mid-level point on the payscale, regardless of how qualified he or she might be.
As perverse as this is, EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT in the United States is different, and even the school districts within one state will vary all over the lot. This explains why the U.S. posters here have completely different views of "teacher compensation." My views are obviously colored by the local situation, which I believe is typical but not universal here in the U.S.
Re: What Value Education?
By benefits, I meant:Gob wrote:What are these "benefits", I'm being a bit thick here I suppose, but can you post what are considered benefits of a job in the USA?Guinevere wrote:
On a similar note, I'd like to hear from other board members -- whether public or private sector, what kind of benefits they get.
Health insurance
Pension or retirement plan
Vacation, sick, and personal leave
Bonus
And Dave, as a general matter, neither Teachers nor Engineers nor Lawyers are entitled to overtime, as a matter of federal law.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: What Value Education?
I work in an upholstery shop doing estimates, sales, marketing, bookkeeping (all the "front of the house" stuff); it's just me, the owner/upholsterer and one other upholsterer. There are no paid benefits. The job provides no paid vacation, no paid sick leave, no pension/retirement plan, no health insurance. The owner doesn't have any medical insurance for himself and I don't know about the other upholsterer.
I am fortunate in that when my late Spousal Unit retired, he set up health insurance for both of us so that it would continue even if he died. there is no way I could afford (or probably even get) private coverage at my age.
I am fortunate in that when my late Spousal Unit retired, he set up health insurance for both of us so that it would continue even if he died. there is no way I could afford (or probably even get) private coverage at my age.
Re: What Value Education?
Guin, I don't know whether you are disagreeing with me or not.
Defenders of teachers frequently mention an illusory number of extra hours that teachers must work, implying that if they were working in the private sector they either would not have to work these hours, or they would be paid for them.
BTW, younger engineers in this geographical area are often compensated for their "overtime" hours, albeit not as envisioned in the FLSA. They either get straight time pay, a special payscale based on whether it is weekday or weekend, or comp time that, if not used, may eventually paid at the S/T rate. This is done generally because of the investment in the younger engineers, and the need to keep them happy to keep them from leaving. Once a couple of the local engineering firms started doing it, most other mid-and-large employers of engineers had to match that "benefit."
As you say, "professionals" are not generally paid for their overtime. I have not received a penny of O/T compensation since I quit my last Security Guard job in 1973.
Defenders of teachers frequently mention an illusory number of extra hours that teachers must work, implying that if they were working in the private sector they either would not have to work these hours, or they would be paid for them.
BTW, younger engineers in this geographical area are often compensated for their "overtime" hours, albeit not as envisioned in the FLSA. They either get straight time pay, a special payscale based on whether it is weekday or weekend, or comp time that, if not used, may eventually paid at the S/T rate. This is done generally because of the investment in the younger engineers, and the need to keep them happy to keep them from leaving. Once a couple of the local engineering firms started doing it, most other mid-and-large employers of engineers had to match that "benefit."
As you say, "professionals" are not generally paid for their overtime. I have not received a penny of O/T compensation since I quit my last Security Guard job in 1973.
Re: What Value Education?
Dave, you said: "Senior engineers for my company (and my previous employer) generally make from $70k to 95k or so a year, with four weeks vacation. They work considerable overtime with no compensation, as a matter of routine." My point was that it is not a matter of routine, but a matter of federal law.
And I wasn't commenting on whether or not teachers work many "extra" hours -- but with respect to OT, they are considered the same as engineers, executives, lawyers, and certain other exempt employees.
For the record, I work plenty of hours, have my entire professional life, and I've never received a lick of overtime pay (including before I was a lawyer).
And I wasn't commenting on whether or not teachers work many "extra" hours -- but with respect to OT, they are considered the same as engineers, executives, lawyers, and certain other exempt employees.
For the record, I work plenty of hours, have my entire professional life, and I've never received a lick of overtime pay (including before I was a lawyer).
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: What Value Education?
Guinevere wrote: By benefits, I meant:
Health insurance; Optional, we have private insurance on top of the medicare system here, we pay for that ourselves.
Pension or retirement plan ; Local Govt Superannuation plan. Hen has a massive super built up, and could retire on this at 55 with a very generous pension.
Vacation, sick, and personal leave; I get seven weeks a year, plus personal leave plus one day "flex" a fortnight off as I work shifts. Next year I'm entitled to "long service leave":.
Bonus; ? ? ?
The ACT Public Service employment arrangements include a range of attractive benefits, including:
14 weeks’ paid maternity leave;
12 weeks’ purchased leave available to employees;
10 days for the provision of leave for domestic partners on the birth of a child;
Three years’ unpaid leave available for employees following the birth of a child;
The right to part-time employment for up to three years after maternity leave;
Vacation child-care subsidy;
Carers’ leave provisions;
Generous leave provisions, including personal leave, compassionate leave, bereavement leave and leave in special circumstances; and
Flexible working arrangements including job sharing and home-based work.
I'd normally say "you're kidding me right, no statutory leave/sick etc?" but I know you aint..kristina wrote: There are no paid benefits. The job provides no paid vacation, no paid sick leave, no pension/retirement plan, no health insurance. The owner doesn't have any medical insurance for himself and I don't know about the other upholsterer.
I am fortunate in that when my late Spousal Unit retired, he set up health insurance for both of us so that it would continue even if he died. there is no way I could afford (or probably even get) private coverage at my age.
Jesus!
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: What Value Education?
Hey Dave, you'll like this:
TIRED school teachers will be paid a $50,000 "burnout bonus" to quit under a scheme to attract young educators and improve public education.
The Teacher Renewal Program, to be announced today by Education Minister Jay Weatherill, begins this year.
Ageing teachers, or those disengaged after years in the system, will be encouraged to consider the payment as a transition to retirement or another career, making way for young, enthusiastic educators.
The program will then free up more permanent positions for graduates and early career teachers who struggle to find long-term employment.
Mr Weatherill said more needed to be done to address performance issues and attract younger teachers who make a difference.
"The payments of $50,000 will be offered to those experienced teachers whose enthusiasm or energy after long careers in the classroom is beginning to wane," he said.
"The positions freed up by these incentives will be filled by graduates and early career teachers.
"We will also have a more rigorous approach to professional development and managing unsatisfactory performance."
The "burnout bonus" was introduced in Queensland in 2002 and more recently in Victoria.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/teachers- ... 5996427867
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: What Value Education?
The only workers who don't get paid sick/personal/vacation leave here are casual workers... who get paid 20% more than contracted/permanent employees.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?
Re: What Value Education?
strop, you are right. I like it.
Teaching is a profession that requires a personal and emotional commitment (in order to be good), and in some cases people just burn out emotionally. Just like nurses, social workers, and people who work in nursing homes. God bless the ones who don't burn out, but we all know teachers who haven't cared a whit for years, but are so well compensated and protected that they would never even consider going someplace and giving up all the goodies.
Teaching is a profession that requires a personal and emotional commitment (in order to be good), and in some cases people just burn out emotionally. Just like nurses, social workers, and people who work in nursing homes. God bless the ones who don't burn out, but we all know teachers who haven't cared a whit for years, but are so well compensated and protected that they would never even consider going someplace and giving up all the goodies.