The Myth of the Mithra's...

[Rick]

Most holiday are where they are because of an attempt to slip those pagan hams by unnoticed...

[thestoat]

I think the suspect nature of Jesus born on 25th December is only not seen by lo

Easter is where it is Now due to the calculus derived from the Jewish Passover and it's lunar calendar adapted to a solar calendar. It is a practice that grew directly out of the Jewish event rater than an artificial grafting into the prevailing holiday calendar. It's a central theme of the gospels the crucifixion occurred during passover you cannot read the then and miss that Fact.

If we assume that Jesus was indeed crucified and rose 3 days later from the dead, then I guess this may well have happened around the time we now call Easter since I know of nothing that refutes this (whereas even the Bible suggests a different birth month). That the same thing happened to Osiris (and many others) almost 2000 years before Jesus got in on the act surely casts doubt on the resurrection story.

Sean - I hadn't heard of Thothmosis - need to look him up. Very interesting ...

[Crackpot]

Even if you doubt the Resurrection. Mark (the earliest manuscript in it's original truncated version) puts his Death at Passover. The two are inexorable.

[Rick]

(whereas even the Bible suggests a different birth month)

I don't necessarily agree with December either however what month does it suggest?

Even if you doubt the Resurrection. Mark (the earliest manuscript in it's original truncated version) puts his Death at Passover. The two are inexorable.

I agree...

[Lord Jim]

That the same thing happened to Osiris (and many others) almost 2000 years before Jesus got in on the act surely casts doubt on the resurrection story.

Not the way I see it...

Anymore than early myths about human flight casts doubt on the Wright Brothers story....

Only if you begin wit the assumption that The Resurrection never took place does it make sense to compare it to myths....

[thestoat]

Anymore than early myths about human flight casts doubt on the Wright Brothers story....

Only if you begin wit the assumption that The Resurrection never took place does it make sense to compare it to myths....

Unless you lump the story of Christ in with all the other myths - they share so many of the same traits (mother human, father god, etc etc right through to died and reborn).

I don't necessarily agree with December either however what month does it suggest?

There have been various non biblical) calculations and hints from the bible. The classic "While shepherds watched their flocks" type of story suggests something like September. I found the following passage (among many)

There is additional proof that Jesus was born in the fall of the year. The census of Quirinius that required Joseph to travel from Galilee to Bethlehem would most probably have taken place after the fall harvest when people were more able to return to their ancestral homes (Luke 2:1-5). Besides, it was customary in Judea to do their tax collecting during this period, as the bulk of a farmer's income came at this time.

Another point is that Joseph and Mary had to find shelter in a barn or some other kind of animal shelter like a cave or grotto because the inns were full (verse 7). This indicates that the pilgrims from around the world had begun to arrive in Jerusalem and surrounding towns. Thus, the fall festival season had already commenced. There would have been no similar influx of pilgrims in December.

Also, as the shepherds were still in the fields with their flocks (verse 8), Jesus' birth could not have occurred during the cold-weather months of winter. Sheep were normally brought into centrally located pens or corrals as the weather turned colder and the rainy season began, especially at night. If this were not significant, it begs the question, "Why would Luke have mentioned it in such detail if not to convey a time reference?"



Read more: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction ... z1R9DM6UaU

There is a calculation that places his birth in June http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/chris ... claim.html

Even if you doubt the Resurrection. Mark (the earliest manuscript in it's original truncated version) puts his Death at Passover. The two are inexorable.

If he was born then he died, and as I say I know of nothing that refutes the death at that time. Maybe that was simply a coincidence. Maybe it was also a coincidence that he was resurrected 3 days later. That he was born of a virgin with a god as his dad (like Orisis, Dionysis, others), died and got reborn (like Orisis, Dionysis, others) - maybe they are all coincidences.

The earliest discussions of mythological parallels between Dionysus and the figure of the Christ in Christian theology can be traced to Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803).[39] Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels.
They point to the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ;[40][41] though, Wick argues that the use of wine symbolism in the Gospel of John, including the story of the Marriage at Cana at which Jesus turns water into wine, was intended to show Jesus as superior to Dionysus.[42]
Additionally, some scholars of comparative mythology argue that both Dionysus and Jesus represent the "dying-and-returning god" mythological archetype.[43] Other elements, such as the celebration by a ritual meal of bread and wine, also have parallels.[44] Powell, in particular, argues precursors to the Christian notion of transubstantiation can be found in Dionysian religion.[44]
Another parallel can be seen in The Bacchae wherein Dionysus appears before King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity is compared to the New Testament scene of Jesus being interrogated by Pontius Pilate.[42][44][45]
E. Kessler in a symposium Pagan Monotheism in the Roman Empire, Exeter, 17–20 July 2006, argues that Dionysian cult had developed into strict monotheism by the 4th century CE; together with Mithraism and other sects the cult formed an instance of "pagan monotheism" in direct competition with Early Christianity during Late Antiquity.[46]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#P ... ristianity

[Sue U]

Easter is where it is Now due to the calculus derived from the Jewish Passover and it's lunar calendar adapted to a solar calendar. It is a practice that grew directly out of the Jewish event rater than an artificial grafting into the prevailing holiday calendar. It's a central theme of the gospels the crucifixion occurred during passover you cannot read the then and miss that Fact. OTOH Jesus' birth has no date relating to it (modern theologists place it in August IIRC) and therefore it's placement at the solstice is suspect.

Passover was placed at springtime because it was grafted onto a much earlier pagan seasonal festival. In fact, all three of the major Jewish holidays (Passover, Shavuot and Sukkot) are agrarian as well as religious festivals, coinciding with barley harvest, first fruits and fall harvest, respectively.

[loCAtek]

You mean the Winter solstice? ...the one that takes place on different day every year? It wasn't the pagans but Julius Caesar who said it had to be on December 25th.

Lo - the Pagans had been celebrating 25th December LONG LONG LONG before Christ was allegedly born. When I said "Your Christ wasn't born on 25th December - that date was nicked and plagiarized from far older pagan rituals since it was around the time of the winter solstice." that is a fact. It is irrelevant WHO decided when to celebrate Christ's birth. The point is that that date was nicked from older pagan religions.

I'd appreciate an academic link please.

[Sean]

You mean Wikipedia?

[thestoat]

I'd appreciate an academic link please.

Here is a good one to start you with, where they write

Yule or Yuletide ("Yule-time") is a winter festival that was initially celebrated by the historical Germanic people as a pagan religious festival, though it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

But there are many, many others

http://www.plim.org/1225Pagan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalda
Related to that -

Mithra, the sun god, was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother

- not bad for someone you didn't think had a birth. And virgin mother - now, where have we heard THAT before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Natalis_Solis_Invicti

A festival on 25 December is sometimes thought to be responsible for the date of Christmas.[7]

[loCAtek]

I think sean was kidding, as he doesn't like Wikipedia.

In contrast to that, I've linked to the archeologists who've studied the reliefs and paintings the very Mithraic followers left behind.
It would be easy to prove the 'virgin birth' assertion with a pic of statue, or cave mural from that time showing such an event; as I did with the 'birth from a stone'. I look forward to your research.

[Gob]

1. Christ was not born on December 25th. Although Christians everywhere observe this day as the birthdate of Christ, we know that He was definitely not born on December 25th, nor at any time during the winter season. At least two factors make this quite evident. Note what the Bible records concerning the time of Jesus’ birth:
a) “And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night” (Luke 2:8). As these shepherds were watching their sheep by night in the open fields, the angel came tot hem with the message of the birth of Christ. It has well been established that the shepherds of Judea did not themselves abide, nor did they keep their flocks in these open fields any later than about the end of October, due to the piercing nature of the winter wind, rain and cold.2 “The shepherds always bring their flocks in from the mountain slopes and fields not later than the fifteenth of October.”3 Obviously, the birth of Christ could not have occurred at late in the winter season as December 25th.

b) The Bible records that at the time of Christ’s birth, Caesar Augustus had decreed that “all the world should be taxed … and all went to be taxed, every one into his own city” (Luke 2:1,3). It was because of this tax that Joseph traveled to Bethlehem, “To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being with child” (vs. 5). While in Bethlehem, unable to secure a room in which to lodge, Mary delivered her child in a stable behind an inn.

Certainly this could not have occurred in the winter, since travel at that time of year was very difficult. Caesar would not have ordered such a taxation then since it would have been virtually impossible for everyone to comply. Travel was so bitterly hard and hazardous during the deep winter season that Jesus himself told the people to pray that their flight at the end of this age would not be in winter, “But pray ye that your flight be not in winter…” (Matthew 24:20). In fact, history records that these taxations always took place at the end of harvest, which was sometime in September or October, a much more logical time for taxation and travel.4 Obviously, Christ could not have been born on December 25th. His birthdate was probably sometime in the fall of the year, but no exact day can be determined. Even the Roman Catholics are compelled to admit, that “The date of Christ’s birth is not known”5

http://www.faithfulword.com/tracts/The_ ... istmas.pdf

[The Hen]

But where is your cave mural, eh?

[Gob]

Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, better known as Constantine I or Constantine the Great, was born around the year A.D. 275 - almost three centuries after Jesus. He worshipped the pantheon of Roman gods as all his predecessors had done and especially the Roman sun god, Sol. However, as he was traveling to battle his most powerful rival in Italy, Maxentius, at the Tiber River in A.D. 312, he had a vision. In that vision, he reported seeing the cross of Christ superimposed on the sun with the words, in hoc signo vinces - "in this sign you shall conquer." After winning the battle, he became a strong champion of Christianity. The very next year, he met with Emperor Licinius, the ruler of the eastern provinces, to sign the Edict of Milan giving equal rights to all religious groups within the Roman Empire. He returned property seized from Christians, built a great number of churches, donated land, and convened the first Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 to deal with false teaching within the church. Although he didn't completely leave his pagan roots and wasn't baptized until A.D. 337 on this deathbed, he did much to further the growth of the church.

Either as a means to unify his empire, or to make converting to Christianity easier, Constantine sought to blend Christian and pagan traditions. At that time, two prominent pagan winter festivals were celebrated. The first, starting on December 17 and lasting seven days, honored Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture. The second, starting on December 25 and lasting through January 1, commemorated the birth of Mithras, the Persian god of light. Constantine merged many of the traditions from these festivals with the Nativity story in the Bible and Christmas was born. From its beginning, Christmas was a holiday (or holy day), gifts were exchanged, families and friends gathered to feast, and a birth was celebrated; just like in the Roman and Persian festivities.

The first mention of December 25 as the date of Jesus' birth is found in an early Roman calendar from A.D. 336.

Although the accounts of Jesus' birth (Matthew 1:18-2:23, Luke 1:26-38, 2:1-20) give us no hints about the date, they do provide a wealth of information about its significance. The Baby born in Bethlehem is the Son of God (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:32, 35), the Savior (Matthew 1:21; Luke 2:11), God with us (Matthew 1:23), and the King who is worthy of worship (Matthew 2:2; Luke 1:33).

[loCAtek]

Unless you lump the story of Christ in with all the other myths - they share so many of the same traits (mother human, father god, etc etc right through to died and reborn).

Now, that only works if you pick and choose loose associations like the wine example; (Note to self: examine Dionysus next) ignoring the rest of the pagan myth around those associations. For example, claiming Osiris was resurrected, makes him Christ-like is a fallacy.

1) He was not resurrected; part of his soul was released after his death.

2) Not much about Osiris story matches Christ's life.

Then making the false assumption that all those other mythological figures held ALL those associations. 'Lumping means ignoring all the details, it's a Red Herring.

Off to demonstrate this with Dionysus.

...BTW I'm tempted to do some field research on this topic. I've done net research quite a bit before, but in this instance, I'm fortunate enough to live near the
Rosicrucian Egyptian Museum & Planetarium..



As well as Egyptian artifacts, as its name implies, they also have many Greco-Roman finds and items from other ancient civilizations. This would be a good place to see for oneself what Egyptians wrote on the subject of Osiris.

[Scooter]

She "spiritual", not into "dogma", but she sure clings to that virgin birth and resurrection story as if the world would stop rotating on its axis if they weren't true.

[loCAtek]

That the same thing happened to Osiris (and many others) almost 2000 years before Jesus got in on the act surely casts doubt on the resurrection story.

Not the way I see it...

Anymore than early myths about human flight casts doubt on the Wright Brothers story....

Only if you begin wit the assumption that The Resurrection never took place does it make sense to compare it to myths....

Wait, how many others? Going to the underworld was done by living heroes, that's not the same as dying and coming back to life.

Jim, that would be crux of my argument if I was trying to cast doubt on Jesus, all it would take would be:

Find his body.

Remains of the historical man Jesus would deny the whole resurrection. No sign of him on Earth, rather makes the point that he ascended bodily into Heaven.

[thestoat]

Oh dear. A body of evidence isn't enough for lo, but a couple of cave paintings might be ... Or maybe if I posted some pics then new evidence would be required. The point is, lo, there is a huge amount of evidence supporting what I have asserted. Instead of just asking for some new pictures, why not just say "oh, ok, you do have a point". It is called "admitting you are wrong".

You need to try to accept that Christ was NOT born on Dec 25 and other religions can lay original claim to a lot of stuff attributed to Christ.

Scooter ... I think the dogma runs deep deep deep ...

[Gob]

Jim, that would be crux of my argument if I was trying to cast doubt on Jesus, all it would take would be:

Find his body.

Remains of the historical man Jesus would deny the whole resurrection. No sign of him on Earth, rather makes the point that he ascended bodily into Heaven.

And a new nadir in dumb has been reached.....

[loCAtek]

http://www.faithfulword.com/tracts/The_ ... istmas.pdf

This article is so muddled, the author says all of these were sun gods;

The birthday of other sun gods such as Osiris, Horus, Hercules, Bacchus, Adonis, Jupiter, Tammuz, Saturn, etc.,

More lumping?