The Myth of Dionysus'

[Sean]

LMAO - I remember that... Mrs Merton.

"So tell me Debbie, what was it that first attracted you to the short, balding, multi-millionaire Paul Daniels?"

I have a good memory for useless trivia like that... although it's not useless anymore!

[Crackpot]

Stoat THe thing is the virgin birth of mithra(s) isn't mentioned in either the holiday discription or the mithra(s) page directly.

[loCAtek]

Lo, why are you being so obtuse? Do you really not get it? Are you saying the following?

1. None of the old gods were descended from virgins
2. None of the old gods were born of humble origin
3. None of the old gods performed miracles
4. None of the old gods were resurrected

I am not saying "all of the old gods were as above" but I am saying some were and the various bits were cherry picked for the Christ story.

Let me give you a single, simple example. I think it is fair to say that wikipedia is a trusted source on these forums. So:

According to Persian mythology, Mithra, the sun god, was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winter_festivals

Thus I suggest - and believe - that the idea of Christ's virgin birth was plagiarized from stories such as these. Mithras came first. If you disagree with this then I would be interested to hear your reasons why.

Yes stoat the whole quote is a description of Yalda

Yalda: The turning point, Winter Solstice (December 21). As the longest night of the year and the beginning of the lengthening of days, Shabe Yaldā (Persian: یلدا) or Shabe Chelle (Persian: شب چله) is an Iranian festival celebrating the victory of light and goodness over darkness and evil. 'Shabe yalda' means 'birthday eve.' According to Persian mythology, Mithra, the sun god, was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother. He symbolizes light, truth, goodness, strength, and friendship. Herodotus reports that this was the most important holiday of the year for contemporary Persians. In modern times Persians celebrate Yalda by staying up late or all night, a practice known as 'Shab Chera' meaning 'night gazing'. Friends and family gather to feast and read poetry. Bibliomancy may be practiced with the poetry of Hafez. Fruits and nuts are eaten, especially pomegranates and watermelons. The red color of these fruits invokes the crimson hues of dawn and symbolizes Mithra.

If you click on the link to Yalda it provides;

It was said that Mithra was born out of the light that came from within the Alborz mountains[citation needed] . Ancient Iranians would gather in caves along the mountain range throughout the night to witness this miracle together at dawn. They were known as 'Yar-e Ghar' (Cave Mates). In Iran today, despite of the advent of Islam and Muslim rituals, Shab-e Yalda is still celebrated widely.

'Light from a mountain, or coming from a rock; or stretch that and you could say from a virginal light from a cave. Virgin can mean 'pure', and doesn't always refer to people. Light at high altitudes can have a crystal, clear quality than seems pure and fresh.

I suppose that means you or I could travel to the Alborz mountains, and witness the 'birth' of Mithras for ourselves someday.

I think the translation of born, birth and mother my be the source of the confusion, as in the manner Dionysus is translated as 'twice-born' or 'born of two mothers'.

[thestoat]

Stoat THe thing is the virgin birth of mithra(s) isn't mentioned in either the holiday discription or the mithra(s) page directly.

Agreed, but it is mentioned.

Lo - I ask "Mithras came first. If you disagree with this then I would be interested to hear your reasons why."

And you respond with

"Yes stoat the whole quote is a description of Yalda"

Can you understand this might cause confusion?

I suppose that means you or I could travel to the Alborz mountains, and witness the 'birth' of Mithras for ourselves someday.

Yet since Mirthras was supposed to have been born on 25th (or thereabouts) December, you are now saying that every day is Christmas day?

[loCAtek]

Oh, let me finish that: I suppose that means you or I could travel to the Alborz mountains on the festival of Yalda, and witness the 'birth' of Mithras for ourselves someday.

Yes, Mirthras was born from the pure light from a rock first; and Jesus was born to a virgin woman later.

...and I did add a bit to the above, didn't see you there, stoat.

[thestoat]

There are lots of different interpretations due to the fact that a lot of the rituals and mythology of the various gods weren't written down, and much that was was destroyed by Christianity when it tried to consume the older faiths. There is plenty of controversy and interpretation going on about the bible, and we all know how much that has been manipulated, edited, changed and re-edited over the years. As I said, not a lot is written on wiki about it but I posted an interesting article (imo) giving more detail on Mithras and others.

[Crackpot]

I would not be surprised if there is a (natural perhaps) situation like the one created with the Sungate and the temple at Maccu Piccu where the sun Rises right throgh the gate and illuminates the Altar on the day of the solstice.

There are a wealth of ancient calandars around to declare the solstices around the world and more than a few in the middle east.

[Crackpot]

THe thing that you're missing is that the claims that people are bristling about are issues that are derived from Judaism as being Messainic signs rather than Pagan cross-breeding.

[loCAtek]

I would not be surprised if there is a (natural perhaps) situation like the one created with the Sungate and the temple at Maccu Piccu where the sun Rises right throgh the gate and illuminates the Altar on the day of the solstice.

There are a wealth of ancient calandars around to declare the solstices around the world and more than a few in the middle east.

Wasn't that a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark?

[Sean]

I'm not 100% convinced about the "Mithras was born from the pure light from a rock" thing...

According to the wikipedia article quoted:

It was said that Mithra was born out of the light that came from within the Alborz mountains[citation needed]

It may as well say:

It was said that Mithra was born in a stable in Bethlehem with crowds of wise men, shepherds and various livestock in attendance.[citation needed]

It's from a completely unverified source.

[Crackpot]

That wasn't even true for Jesus Sean

[Sean]

I never said it was CP...

[Scooter]

So back to the OP...

What's been said about Dionysus, in this case, was that he had a mortal mother and a divine father.

It has been said by your own sources:

Semele had a tomb in THEBES

Know many immortal beings that need a tomb?

So, how did Semele get mistaken for a mortal, and a virginal one at that?

Wiki says;

Semele, in Greek mythology, daughter of Cadmus and Harmonia, was the mortal mother of Dionysus by Zeus

I fixed the quotation to include the part of your own source that you chose to ignore.

So at least two of your own sources state unequivocally that Dionysus had a mortal mother and a divine father.

Remind you of anyone you know?

Shooting fish in barrels is such fun. Particularly when they are crocked.

[thestoat]

Lo? You went quiet - I am interested in your thoughts to the previous post ...

Though no texts of Mithraism survive, various fragments, inscriptions and critical commentaries show that Mithraism and early Christianity both possess similar religious doctrines. The resemblances between the two churches were so striking as to impress even the minds of antiquity.

Among the recorded similarities between Christianity and Mithraism are the following, namely:

· Virgin birth
· Twelve followers
· Killing and resurrection
· Miracles
· Birthdates on December 25
· Morality
· Mankind’s saviour
· Known as the Light of the world

Both Christianity and Mithraism prided themselves in brotherhood and organised their members as church congregations. Both religions purified themselves through baptism, and each participated in the same type of sacrament, bread and wine.

Mithras was born in a cave; a cave is likewise the setting for the nativity of Jesus in the widely-read and influential Gospel of James, which though not canonical is the earliest surviving document attesting the veneration of Mary and claiming her continuing virginity. Both nativities were celebrated on December 25, and each saviour was visited by shepherds with gifts. Both Mithraism and Christianity considered Sunday their holy day, despite early Christianity observing the Jewish Sabbath for centuries. Many have noted that the title of Pope is found in Mithraic doctrine and originally seemingly prohibited in Christian doctrine. The words Peter (rock) and mass (sacrament) have original significance in Mithraism.

[loCAtek]

Hello Stoat, I don't have lots of time to post to everything ..but here I am today. <bows>

Do you recall my mention of King Arthur, being derived from a factual person, which became fictionalized over time? I try to go to an older source of the Mithra mythos since later tellings, if they are not reports of archeological evidence; tend to get influenced by 'hearsay'. Much the same way the oral traditions of the past accentuated real persons or events; the internet uses much circular logic to support and augment 'glurge', they call it;

glurge Urban Dictionary

See also http://www.wordspy.com/words/glurge.asp , just above "Earliest Citation" for another element: Tales that "undermine their messages by fabricating and distorting historical fact."

I've found internet searching, takes much researching the source of the info, a few levels before it can considered a valid source.

Otherwise, 'I saw it on the internet' isn't a very credible claim.

[Gob]

Do you recall my mention of King Arthur, being derived from a factual person, which became fictionalized over time?

oh god, another subject about which she knows nothing that she's bumping her gums about.

Care to substantiate that claim?

[Scooter]

I've found internet searching, takes much researching the source of the info, a few levels before it can considered a valid source.

So are the sources which you posted, which say that Dionysus was born of a mortal mother and a divine father, valid or not?

[thestoat]

Otherwise, 'I saw it on the internet' isn't a very credible claim.

Well, of course, which is why I said

But I do agree there isn't much in wiki about it - either way. A lot of it just isn't mentioned - Christianity has the written word to refer too in a single book that transcends everything. So I did a little digging around this and came up with a very interesting article. Most of the stuff I came up with was either from an atheist site or a religious site and I thus discounted that for bias reasons. So avoiding the likes of i_love_jesus.com and atheists_rule.com, how about this ...

So, it seems to me that you are stating that the only credible internet resource is one that you quote? Or is it simply one that agrees with your stance? Just stating "nah nah I can't hear you" is pretty poor form. I also quoted a wiki article stating "According to Persian mythology, Mithra, the sun god, was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother", which since it goes against what you have been saying is presumably discarded in the same way by you.

I come to these forums with a point of view - certainly. But I also read and take on board what others have said. If I believe them wrong I explain why. If I believe they have a valid point I state this. Personally I don't simply ignore uncomfortable truths. But that's just me

[loCAtek]

Otherwise, 'I saw it on the internet' isn't a very credible claim.

Well, of course, which is why I said

But I do agree there isn't much in wiki about it - either way. A lot of it just isn't mentioned - Christianity has the written word to refer too in a single book that transcends everything. So I did a little digging around this and came up with a very interesting article. Most of the stuff I came up with was either from an atheist site or a religious site and I thus discounted that for bias reasons. So avoiding the likes of i_love_jesus.com and atheists_rule.com, how about this ...

Granted.

So, it seems to me that you are stating that the only credible internet resource is one that you quote? [Wot?] Or is it simply one that agrees with your stance? [Wotlul] Just stating "nah nah I can't hear you" is pretty poor form. [I did not so[ I also quoted a wiki article stating "According to Persian mythology, Mithra, the sun god, was born at dawn on the 22nd of December to a virgin mother", which since it goes against what you have been saying is presumably discarded in the same way by you. [negative, I went to the source of that article, which claimed no such thing]

I come to these forums with a point of view - certainly. But I also read and take on board what others have said. [As do I see above] If I believe them wrong I explain why. [As do I] If I believe they have a valid point I state this. [As do I] Personally I don't simply ignore uncomfortable truths. But that's just me

i've not ignored your input; pls see above bracketed replies.


BTW, you might want to avoid 'that's just me'. People here, tend to jump your shit for that. Dunno why, but that's juss' me

[Sean]

No they don't. People tend to "jump your shit" when you behave like a vacuous cunt!

And you still haven't given a single reasonable answer but there again... I don't expect you to. I expect you to call me a 'control freak' now to try and create a distraction which you can use to give yourself a way out of your corner...