If god says you're cured, you're cured!

[loCAtek]

Inducing... lying... I'm sorry, I give folks more credit to intelligence than that.

Does it make you feel better, somehow, not to, juss curious?

[Scooter]

I'm fine with peace, deal with it.

They weren't promised peace, they were promised a cure. I guess I don't own the dictionary where death = cure.

[Scooter]

Inducing... lying... I'm sorry, I give folks more credit to intelligence than that.

They weren't lied to? They weren't told that "lots" of people had been cured their way? No one died after being promised they would be cured?

[Scooter]

Does it make you feel better, somehow, not to, juss curious?

So it was ok for their pastors to lie to them, because they should have known better than to trust their pastors?

[loCAtek]

You were there?


Each time?



Really?

...to what they were promised?

I'm sorry, the closest to what I saw, my neighbor died happy.




You got better?

[Scooter]

You were there?


Each time?



Really?

...to what they were promised?

Out of the pastors' own mouths in the article. Oh wait, I should know better than to believe them, no wait, they are offering spiritual solace in the form of an agonizing death, no wait...

I'm sorry, the closest to what I saw, my neighbor died happy.

Your neighbour was not choosing between death and decades of a virtually normal life.

You got better?

A lot better than when I had toxoplasmosis attacking my brain and KS lesions covering my body inside and out and microsporidosis eating away at my intestines, in between bouts of pneumonia-induced septic shock.

If people want to choose to live and die wih those illnesses, who am I to stop them? But that was not the choice being offered to them, was it? They were told they were being cured without meds, not that they would experience all sorts of horrific illnesses until they died in short order.

But you go right on defending these modern day Jim Joneses...

[loCAtek]

You were there?


Each time?



Really?

...to what they were promised?

Out of the pastors' own mouths in the article. Oh wait, I should know better than to believe them, no wait, they are offering spiritual solace in the form of an agonizing death, no wait...

I'm sorry, the closest to what I saw, my neighbor died happy.

Your neighbour was not choosing between death and decades of a virtually normal life.

Well, gouge my eyes out with a rusty salad fork, I didn't see what I saw according to Scooter. It's only his experience that matters, and that's not narcissistic, at all.
I'm so glad, I've been enlightened to one man's eyes on others enlightenment; I should listen to him and only him, coZ, uh ...hey, uh, why again?

[Scooter]

You said your neighbour had terminal leukemia. His or her choice was between a faster death and a death that would have been prolonged by treatments that would have added to his or her suffering. He or she did not have the chance to live for decades virtually symptom free. These people did. They were denied that chance by pastors who promised them a cure they knew they could not deliver.

But when you so completely lose the plot like this it is obvious you have been hitting the sauce, so there is no point in continuing.

[dales]

Smart move, Scooter.

It these "pastors" were so inclined, why didn't they trek out to the local hospices to "cure" others from various terminal diseases?

[Scooter]

Or why didn't they inject themselves with HIV-infected blood and cure themselves after confirming they had been infected?

[dales]

SCOAN is a cult.

http://tbjoshuawatch.wordpress.com/2011 ... pert-view/

Is SCOAN a cult?

March 13, 2011




.

“Cult: an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader”

On this site we have shown many of the controversial and worrying aspects of TB Joshua’s church, the Synagogue Church of All Nations (SCOAN). It is clear that TB Joshua is a charismatic and powerful leader who has a great number of devoted disciples as well as his numerous detractors. It is also clear that the church has a number of strange and unorthodox practices. But is it fair to suggest that SCOAN is a dangerous and extreme religious sect? Is TB Joshua a cult leader?

The International Cultic Studies Association (website) are a worldwide authority on cults. They have drawn up a checklist of 14 criteria to help identify a cult. In this post, using testimonies from ex-disciples and relatives of current disciples, we show that SCOAN fulfills the vast majority of these criteria.

NOTE: Not everyone who attends SCOAN or admires TB Joshua is a cult member. There are thousands of people who follow the teaching of TB Joshua without being exposed to all of the cult-like aspects of SCOAN. This article primarily refers to the most dedicated followers of TB Joshua, most of whom live periodically within the SCOAN compound in Lagos.

Our main testimonies are from Giles and Madelaine. Giles was a disciple of TB Joshua from 2005 to 2006. His written accounts of being a disciple (which you can read here) echo many existing accounts online. Madelaine has also been directly impacted by SCOAN; her close family have devoted the last ten years of their lives to TB Joshua, taking their children out of education and moving to Lagos to serve as disciples. Her name has been changed to protect her identity and that of her family. Remember, there are numerous independent accounts that back up the testimonies on this page; many can be found linked here and here.


1) The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

Madelaine: “Conversations I’ve had with family members (on the very rare occasions that they occur) have been peppered with the phrases “the prophet says” or “our father in the lord””

Claire: “One of my friends died of cancer after being ‘healed’ by TB Joshua. At her funeral her son declared her as his ‘sister’ (what happened to honour your mother and father?) and TB Joshua as his father.” (from the comments section on this post)

Giles: “I have seen him (TB Joshua) in a fit of rage hit a woman, hard on the face. It wasn’t a fist, it was open handed. But it was really hard, and I remember looking around at everyone’s reaction. I was pretty shaken by that, but one of the disciples explained it with me afterwards- the need for discipline, how he does this cos he loves us, etc. That’s what they do. They defend him. They explain things. They protect him.” (see original article)

2) The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

Madelaine: “My family have never tried to recruit me because I think they know that I am a lost cause. But they have put huge amounts of effort into publicising SCOAN”

3) The group is preoccupied with making money.

Madelaine: “Members of my family no longer own property in England . Property sales information is in the public domain so I know the amounts involved. I do not know what they have done with the money, but I suspect that it has been given to SCOAN.”

Giles: “When tithes are collected, the person collecting tithes would put a tick next to your name to show you have payed your tithe, appropriate to the salary you are marked as earning. Everything is recorded. So a good member would have an unbroken string of ticks beside your name to show you’re a good tithe-paying citizen of heaven. One of the benefits of this is getting considered to have a Prayer Mountain pass and be allowed onto Prayer Mountain at certain times… (to be a member of Emmanuel TV) you needed to make a contribution of at least $50 … and in return, you get the pass, and certain nights of the week would be for that group.” (see original article)


4) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Madelaine: “I remember being told “doubt your doubts and not your faith” which made no sense to me as my faith has strengthened because I have examined doubts. But that argumentwas met with no response.”

Giles: (describing a minor incident which led to his leaving) “I was ostracized by the foreign disciples, and banned from the dining room. A few of the newer disciples obviously sympathised with me, and secretly told me how they were made to gather downstairs against my mother, even though they wanted no part of it. Apart from that, the message was clear. They wanted me to leave.” (read the full story)

5) Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

Giles: “One of the things you would notice in the (dorm) room was that the lights were always on. White light would be on during the day, and darkened blue lights would come on at night. They never switched them off, even when most people were sleeping. I guess it would contribute to the general tiredness I always felt when I lived there.” (see original article)

Madelaine: “When members of my family were first involved they talked a bit more about the place. I was told that they had disciples meetings in the middle of the night. At the time I did not challenge them so did not ask the question ‘Why?’. But I thought it.”

Giles: “Reporting each other’s wrongdoings is a way disciples will tell you of correcting each other. “Receiving correction” is what they call it… However, the more I noticed how the disciples don’t love each other, the more I began to question their motives for ganging up on an individual and reporting them. The problem is that people report each other for things that have nothing to do with sinning, and everything to do with not conforming to SCOAN, like not calling females Sister so-and-so.” (See original article)

Madelaine: “I visited Lagos and hoped that I would have an opportunity to spend some time with a member of my family who was there as a disciple, but they were always so busy and had no time to stop. On the very few occasions that I have met my family members the brief time that we have had together has been interrupted by mobile phone calls which clearly have complete priority over anything else. I once asked a question about whether they took a Sabbath but the question was not answered.”

6) The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).

Madelaine: “I heard that a member of my family was getting married to another disciple and when they came to visit England I was contacted to meet with them. That was different as contact of any sort generally came from my initiative. I thought at the time “I wonder if someone has commented that it seems odd that the disciples do not get married, and the ‘prophet’ has responded by arranging some weddings”. I later discovered that the marriage had been ordered by the prophet.”

7) The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

Madelaine: “I was told that this was “A superior form of Christianity””

Giles: “(After leaving SCOAN) I was still brainwashed in thinking that TB Joshua’s sermons were unique and no one else’s preaching would do. I have never, not once, heard anything positive about a single other ministry from disciples. When I finally went to another church, I got a bit of a pleasant surprise. The sermons weren’t all that bad, in fact some of the messages taught the same things that TB Joshua’s messages did. It went a long way to show that TB Joshua wasn’t as unique as I had been taught. Disciples depend on TB Joshua’s message, and I’ve been told by a few that their personal fear in leaving was that they wouldn’t get such quality stuff anymore, that they’ll “shrivel up and die” spiritually. It’s just not true.”

8) The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

Giles: ““Blasphemers” is the term given to people against SCOAN and TB Joshua. Prominent supporters are known as “friends of the ministry”. I don’t know of any other church that categorises people like this. I guess now I’m a blasphemer” (see original post)

This collection of SCOAN-produced videos denouncing ‘blasphemers’ who have spoken against the church (Beware of Blasphemers) shows that this kind of knee-jerk slandering of critics is integral to SCOAN.

9) The group’s leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).

The standard response to criticism of TB Joshua is that “what people don’t understand, they attack” and that “All men of God face false accusations” (this post talks about how misguided this argument is). This goes some way towards showing how unaccountable TB Joshua is within SCOAN.

Madelaine: “All information about TB Joshua that I have read from the Internet indicates that he is not accountable. I have also met a Nigerian church leader visiting England who has said exactly the same.”

10) The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).

Giles: “I was never as fanatical about TB Joshua as other disciples. Not by half. But when I was confronted with a straight question and had to give a yes/no answer, I chose to lie. I have no doubt that the same thing happens all the time.”

11) The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.


We are confident that this is an important factor within SCOAN; guilt is certainly essential for keeping sexual abuse victims quiet. If any ex-disciples have anything to say about guilt, comments are welcome.


12) Members’ subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.

Madelaine: “I have had no contact with some members of my family for many years. I have sent Christmas and Birthday cards and never received any acknowledgement that they have been received.”

Giles: “Families are seen by disciples as a hinderance. When you go there as a disciple, you are strongly encouraged to cut all links with your family and friends. They will tell you that you are here in the first place shows that your family was unable to help you in what you are looking for, and that maintaining contact with family would only hinder you and make you lose your focus.”

Madelaine: ” I know of a number of young people who have given up on their education to become disciples. Some from only 16. This is in contrast with the daughter of “the prophet” being educated at The London School of Economics.”

13) Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.

Madelaine: “Many members of my family have given their every moment of their time for nearly 10 years.”

14) Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members

Madelaine: “A disciple who has recently been in London has contacted an old school friend and they met up. However, on meeting her, the old friend realised that it was only to try and persuade her to come to the SCOAN Church in London. Since they were at school together, the disciple had been in Lagos and the friend had completed A Levels, and a Degree and is now working. They had not been in contact once for all of that time.”


Familes are seen by disciples as a hinderance. When you go there as a disciple, you are strongly encouraged to cut all links with your family and friends. They will tell you that you are here in the first place shows that your family was unable to help you in what you are looking for. “Your family cannot help you”, and that maintaing contact with family would only hinder you and make you lose your focus. I managed to get away with emailing about once a week or two, but alot of people – especially the female disciples“Families are seen by disciples as a hinderance. When you go there as a disciple, you are strongly encouraged to cut all links with your family and friends. They will tell you that you are here in the first place shows that your family was unable to help you in what you are looking for, and that maintaining contact with family would only hinder you and make you lose your focus.”

Classic cult modus operendi.

I hope this info helps loca, not everything done in "the name of God" has His stamp of approval upon it.

[loCAtek]

Maybe it is, but it seems to be one of the better ones, ;

Wiki
Humanitarian Work

Another Ministry is the humanitarian arm of SCOAN, with the stated aim of undertaking projects catering to the needs of widows,[23][24] dwarfs,[25] the elderly,[26] physically challenged,[27] orphans and the destitute.[28]

The church provides scholarships to orphans and children of the underprivileged, with educational support given from primary to tertiary levels. There is also a rehabilitation programme for armed robbers,[29][30] prostitutes and militants from Nigeria’s volatile Niger Delta region.[31] He is also well known in Nigeria for reconciling broken families and marriages.[32][33][34]

SCOAN has established various NGOs in other countries, including the Passion For Needy in Ghana.[35]

In 2009 Joshua started a football club, My People FC as part of efforts to help the youth. Two members of the team played for Nigeria's Golden Eaglets in the 2009 FIFA U-17 World Cup. Sani Emmanuel, who apparently lived in The SCOAN for several years,[36] was Nigeria's top-scorer and the tournament's MVP. Emmanuel and his colleague Ogenyi Onazi have now signed professional contracts with SS Lazio and are representing Nigeria in the 2011 FIFA U-20 World Cup.[37]

Following the 2010 Commonwealth Games in Delhi, India, T.B. Joshua rewarded the efforts of the Nigerian Team, presenting the physically challenged medallists with cash gifts and cars.[38]

After the 2010 Haiti earthquake, Joshua sent a team of medical personnel and humanitarian workers to the affected area, establishing a field hospital called 'Clinique Emmanuel'.[39]

In recognition of his humanitarian activities, he was awarded a National Honour by the Nigerian government in 2008.[40]

A Forbes blogger estimated Joshua has spent $20m on humanitarian activities in the last three years.[31]


Excerpt from one of his sermons:


Lagos — GENERAL Overseer of the Synagogue Church of Nations, Prophet Temitope Joshua, last Saturday marked his 47th birthday at Ikotun Egbe, Lagos headquarters of the church with an appeal to his partners to rededicate themselves to the acts of giving to the poor.He made the appeal in his birthday message to Emmanuel TV viewers, church members and prayer warriors, reminding them of the importance of giving in humility, simplicity and cheerfulness to the less privileged, especially the fatherless, widows, physically challenged and the elderly people in the society.

He said such gesture would be rewarded by God. "Give to them and it will be given back to you in a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over. Give them every good thing the Lord has given you-your love, kindness, strength, time and money. They are fatherless so that you can be their father. They are lonely so that you can be their companion. They are in want so that you can be their benefactor," he said.

Joshua, who also advised his admirers to use the occasion to visit those on the sickbed in hospitals in their locations, urged them to pray for them, stressing that such people needed love and compassion.

"There are many people in hospitals around you, go there, visit them, and show them your love and compassion. "May be, that is what is needed for their recovery. Pray with them and pray for them. By doing this, you are not only helping to solve someone else's problem, you may discover who you are thereby," he said.

[I guess that answers your question; why didn't they trek out to the local hospices? They do.]

The BBC article in the OP states that a number of churches in the UK are suggesting this faith-healing and that SCOAN is only one of them. It does not specifically say which church the people who died went to.

Where was the reporting on the good this church has done for years? Did Atheist Alliance International (AAI) send anyone to Haiti?

[Scooter]

"Jim Jones's church did a huge amount of humanitarian work. Why is it that no one ever talks about that, and can't let go of the koolaid incident?"

"Oh yeah, and when Ted Bundy was young he was a boy scout who did all sorts of good deeds for old ladies. Why can't anyone ever remember that instead of dwelling on the murders he committed?"

[dales]

[I guess that answers your question; why didn't they trek out to the local hospices? They do.]

Any "cures" reported?

And NO, you are unable to answer my question.

Nice dodge, though.

[loCAtek]

Interesting trivia fact: My Ex-Mother-in-law had a co-worker who sold all her possessions and went to live [and die] in Jonestown. Please, don't go into a tail chasing frenzy, saying that implies I condone Jim Jones. but you probably will, oh well I tried.

..but thx for reminding me, I was going to touch on that; this Pastor Joshua also seems more legitimate in that he practices what he preaches, unlike Jim Jones or my personal favorite false messiah Michael Travesser, who were involved in sex scandals and/or other abuses of power.

Why do folks talk more about the abuses and not the good works? Probably because the abuses far out·weigh the good. Obviously, megalomaniacs like Jones and Travesser weren't promoting faith or God, but themselves. Their efforts at philanthropy ended with them isolating themselves in their community where they preached of their own godhood.

Pastor Joshua's sermons are focused on worship and Jesus, not himself.
The larger SCOAN seems to get the more good works they go out and do.

Deliberately mischaracterizing them as doing nothing but tearing the medications right out of dying people's hands is wrong. Looking at some of the 'miracles' performed on YouTube, I'll grant you that some these people were probably just given proper medical attention ..but for free! Something they couldn't have access or funds for before. So, in that respect, SCOAN has literally saved lives too. Yes, cured them, in Jesus' name.

[Daisy]

Sorry loCA but you are so very wrong on this.

It's not like your neighbour with leukaemia could pass the illness on. One of these people admits he thinks he's passed the virus onto his partner. Presumably stopping the safe sex practice he used before some fucking god obsessed retard told him he was cured.

The people who are practicing this are preying on the desperate and uneducated. Just like those witch doctors who told men in Africa that sex with a virgin would cure their HIV.

Don't try to defend your stance with me in this case YOU ARE WRONG.

[Gob]

Hey, the new shiny "I'll say anything to get attention, Lo" supports paedophile priests (it's all a myth you know) and animal cruelty so why would she not support people lying to AIDS victims and causing them to die?

[loCAtek]

Wow, Daisy you didn't quote me and still Gob can't ignore me LOL Nothing will satisfy him.

The people who are practicing this are preying on the desperate and uneducated.

I appreciate your not assuming that this was SCOAN, but "preying" implies the churches got something out of this? What are you suggesting that was? There were no reports that the victims had to pay or do anything in return.

In the SCOAN cases, what Pastor Joshua asked of his of 'cured' people, was that they show love and kindness to their fellow man. Help the poor, elderly and sick; to cease violence. If that makes he and his followers 'god-obsessed', I'm sure glad they are.

I'm aware that faith-healing doesn't always work, my neighbor died after all. However as stated many of those 'healed' were done so with free medical care that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten, another 'god-obsessed' perk. Meaning there would many more dead without this religious intervention.

[Scooter]

So now she's claiming that convincing HIV+ people to come off their meds actually saved lives.

Christ, I didn't think there was enough alcohol in the world to get someone to say that.

[loCAtek]

Wow, you read 'free medical care', that way? In my country it means free medical care.

Please, don't go into a tail chasing frenzy, saying that implies I condone ... whoops, can't stop his tail-luving.