Are *you* smarter than an atheist?

[Sean]

31/32. I didn't know the Great Awakening one...

31/32 for me, didn't know what day the front wheelers started their Sabbath. (No offense meant by this.)

Have you never watched Fiddler on the Roof?

[Gob]

Ermmmm... no?

[Sean]

Well if you had you'd have 32/32!

[dales]

"If I were a rich man........."

[Gob]

I've heard; "If I was a rich man, I'd bibby dibby dibby dom, all day long I'd flabby yabby fart, etc.." that's enough to put anyone off the bloody movie.

[Econoline]

32/32, 100%. Only had to guess on one question (the First Great Awakening one), and I happened to guess that one right.

[BoSoxGal]

32/32

Anyone raised Christian or catholic with a modicum of awareness about the other major world religions should get a perfect score. Anyway raised Christian or catholic who didn't score perfectly on the majority of the questions which were Judeo-Christian oriented didn't get properly indoctrinated.

I agree with Sue that it would be more interesting to see how few people know about the broad scope of religious practice which I'm betting many Athiests do.

[BoSoxGal]

Hey, BSG, do grammatical errors in titles get a pass?

Guin never makes actual mistakes, only typos. She's been sensitive about having them pointed out by me in the past, so I gave it a pass.

[Big RR]

32/32, for what it's worth. But I will admit that if the first great awakening question was not multiple choice I would not have brought Johnathan Edwards immediately to mind. Most of the questions are pretty easy, but I'm not surprised that many people don't know much about religions other than the one they were raised in.

And Jim, I do think that "salvation through faith" question takes the protestant view about catholics, and that many catholic scholars would dispute that catholics do not accept it. I think much of the difference (in the modern church) comes from the RC belief that an act of contrition and pennance comes as a predicate to forgiveness. But many protestant denominations (including some (but not all) fundamentalist ones) also teach that one expresses ones faith and thankfulness through ones acts (works), which is not all that different except semantically. And these would judge those who do not express their faith through their acts as not among the saved.

[Lord Jim]

But many protestant denominations (including some (but not all) fundamentalist ones) also teach that one expresses ones faith and thankfulness through ones acts (works), which is not all that different except semantically.

Isn't that one of the main tenants of Calvinism for example?

It seems like there are some very fine line distinctions in play:

The Protestant work ethic (or the Puritan work ethic) is a concept in sociology, economics and history, attributable to the work of Max Weber. It is based upon the notion that the Calvinist emphasis on the necessity for hard work as a component of a person's calling and worldly success is a visible sign or result (not a cause) of personal salvation.

It is argued that Protestants beginning with Martin Luther had reconceptualised worldly work as a duty which benefits both the individual and society as a whole. Thus, the Catholic idea of good works was transformed into an obligation to work diligently as a sign of grace. Whereas Catholicism teaches that good works are required of Catholics to be saved (viewing salvation as a future event), the Reformers taught that good works were only a consequence of an already-received salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

[Big RR]

Jim--as i recall, Calvinism teaches that one is justified (saved) by faith alone, but sanctified by ones actions. Of course, Calvinists would also argue that one who does not do good works was probably also not truly faithful/justified (kind of like the "no true scotsman" argument).

[Crackpot]

Actually Cavlanism teaches that salvaition is pre-ordained therefore acts have no bearing on salvation. (the same argument can be made about faith however)

Note: Calvin wasn't a "Calvinist"

[BoSoxGal]

Note: Calvin wasn't a "Calvinist"

Please substantiate this assertion.

I'm curious to hear how your evidence squares with my experience being a direct descendant of English Puritans and a careful student of their religious history.

[Crackpot]

Calvinism arose from Calvins teachings but didn't organise till after his death. (I can't do research at work) AFAIK Calvin never made an argument for preorination.

[MajGenl.Meade]

bsg, I think the subject is too large for cut and paste. I recommend "Chosen But Free" (Norman Geisler) for a discussion of extreme Calvinism vs. Arminian argumentation. We find this in the introductory paragraphs of Chapter 5:

The extreme Sovereignty view is held by extreme Calvinists, which, as defined here, means someolne who is more Calvinistic than John Calvin (1509-1564), the founder of Calvinism. Calvin did not believe in a crucial tenet of extreme Calvinism, namely, limited atonement.

The roots of extreme Calvinism are found in the later Augustine (and) came into bloom in the Synod of Dort (1618-19) under the influence of the strong Calvinist theologian Theodore Beza. . .

Calvin applied 2Pet 3:9 to "all" men, saying that God desires all men to be saved and is prepared to bring even the perishing to safety. "We must notice the order" he says. "God is prepared to receive all men into repentance so that none may perish." (Calvin's NT Commentaries, Vol 12). This plainly is not a statement of limited atonement as formulated after Calvin's death in the famous TULIP.

There I didn't cut and paste but typed and copied - much better

Meade

[Big RR]

Meade--the Calvanist idea of predestination is pretty strange; they believe all events are part of gods plan, but seem to leave it at that. Per limited atonement my understanding is that those to be saved are preordained (the elect) since the beginning, but that each of us must act for him or herself. Now, of course, the belief is that god will steer the elect to making the "right" decision, much as a river follows its predestined course, but that we do have the choice to accept or reject salvation. Attonement is "limited" because of our choices. Does this mean everyone can be saved? who knows? But predestination is broader; if all events are predestined, how can I make a free decision? And do I deserve to be condemned for just doing what I was created to do?

Further, if I recall correctly, the TULIP acronym is from the Dutch reformed church, not the Calvanists (who were from England); I recall using it when along with the Heidelberg catechism for my confirmation in that church. this church clearly embraced predestination (the P) and it was often used as an excuse for apartheid, causing the US church to break with the Dutch one and actually form two different branches.

edited to add: I just did a search and found that the Calvanists use the TULIP acronym as well, but substitute "perseverance of the saints" for predestination. I still do think the calvanists embrace predestination as above, but perhaps not as strongly as the dutch. After all, American christians used this concept to justify everything they did under manifest destiny.

some corrections to clarify also added.

[dales]

32/32

Anyone raised Christian or catholic with a modicum of awareness about the other major world religions should get a perfect score.

You're right....except in the case of "memory loss".

That's my excuse and I'm stickin' with it!

[MajGenl.Meade]

Kind of Big RR. But Calvinism is not a church or religion but a theology. The Synod of Dort was called by Dutch reformed churches, politicians, university profs and so on, along with participants from many European reformed (protestant) churches to settle the Arminian issue. The majority theology of these reformed churches was Calvinistic; God saved who He had predetermined to save. Arminius proposed that all humans could choose to accept God's offer of salvation through grace; free will was the determinant. That's putting it too simply.

I don't think TULIP ever included the word 'predestination' - that concept is under the U and in fact informs the basis of the entire 5 points one way or another.

Total depravity of man - unable to take one step toward salvation; a slave to sin
Unconditional election - God saves those He has elected to save unconditionally (not by their acts)
Limited atonement - Christ died only for the few - not for all men
Irresistible grace - if God wants to save you, you will be saved.
Perserverance of the saints - once saved, always saved

That is very simplistic indeed. Calvin of course was a Frenchman who spent most of his "church time" in Switzerland. His disciple John Knox took "Calvinism" to Scotland. The Church of England I think has tended toward Arminius perhaps but I don't know. Evangelical churches may be either C or A - Billy Graham is a big Arminian; R C Sproul is a big Calvinist and so on.

The predesinarian usually does not believe that "free will" plays any part (other than God's free will of course)

Meade

[Gob]

Monty Python nailed it...

FOLLOWERS: Oh! Oh! Ohh! Oh! Ah! Oh!

ARTHUR: He has given us a sign!

FOLLOWER: Oh!

SHOE FOLLOWER: He has given us... His shoe!

ARTHUR: The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example.

SPIKE: What?

ARTHUR: Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.

EDDIE: Yes.

SHOE FOLLOWER: No, no, no. The shoe is...

YOUTH: No.

SHOE FOLLOWER: ...a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

GIRL: Cast off...

SPIKE: Aye. What?

GIRL: ...the shoes! Follow the Gourd!

SHOE FOLLOWER: No! Let us gather shoes together!

FRANK: Yes.

SHOE FOLLOWER: Let me!

ELSIE: Oh, get off!

YOUTH: No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

SHOE FOLLOWER: Give me your shoe!

YOUTH: Get off!

GIRL: Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

FOLLOWER: The Gourd!

HARRY: Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us!

ARTHUR: It is a shoe! It is a shoe!

HARRY: It's a sandal!

ARTHUR: No, it isn't!

GIRL: Cast it away!

ARTHUR: Put it on!

YOUTH: And clear off!

SHOE FOLLOWER: Take the shoes and follow Him!

GIRL: Come,...

FRANK: Yes!

GIRL: ...all ye who call yourself Gourdenes!

SPIKE: Stop! Stop! Stop, I say! Stop! Let us-- let us pray. Yea, He cometh to us, like the seed to the grain.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I gave up, because it was taking over a minute for each question to load...


But I got all the ones up to #8 correct!

Me too.
And why did they give your result on each question and then make you hit "NEXT" again to get to the next question?