More Christian Family Values

[Gob]

Broad brush? Me? Never!!

[Lord Jim]

Here's just one example that really illustrates the disproportionate focus point...

I just did a Google search for "Westboro Baptist", a pathetic little cult with fewer than 100 members... (as a matter of fact, they've lost about a third of their members over the past several years.) and got:

About 13,100,000 results

Then I did a search for "Lutheran Church", a global religion with more than 70 million members:

About 15,900,000 results

So, this tiny group of misanthropic losers has about 70% as many references as an established, worldwide mainstream religion with tens of millions of members....

You don't suppose the media might have anything to do with that do you?

[Gob]

If you mean by that that the Luthors (Lex?) don't have their act together for using the media, I must agree. They should spread some hate about.

[Big RR]

Indeed, if a person really believed someone, anyone, was condemned to eternal torture and pain, how it could it be celebrated or applauded? It would take a pretty sick person to celebrate that even for a despicable person,

I have to take issue with that....

I personally do not believe in a permanent Hell, but I certainly wouldn't see anyone who does as a "pretty sick person" if they are happy about folks like Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, or Osama Bin Ladin residing in it....

Jim--you have mentioned some people who did pretty horrible things, but do they deserve eternal torment for it? To what end? I just can't see anything done during the "three score and ten" years we have in our lives warranting an unbearable torment for eternity, and I would see anyone celebrating that even for the likes of the rogues gallery you presented as being sick. Even celebrating a just punishment would be strange to me (although I can still understand it) but for someone who believes that a hell of eternal torment exists to celebrate such a punishment seems horrible.

Indeed, I, like you, do not believe in such a hell, mainly because I cannot fathom an omnipotent being worthy of any admiration doling out such a punishment. And I cannot fathom, seeing justice in, let alone celebrating, such a punishment, even for the worst among us.

[Big RR]

Indeed, if a person really believed someone, anyone, was condemned to eternal torture and pain, how it could it be celebrated or applauded? It would take a pretty sick person to celebrate that even for a despicable person,

I have to take issue with that....

I personally do not believe in a permanent Hell, but I certainly wouldn't see anyone who does as a "pretty sick person" if they are happy about folks like Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, or Osama Bin Ladin residing in it....

Jim--you have mentioned some people who did pretty horrible things, but do they deserve eternal torment for it? To what end? I just can't see anything done during the "three score and ten" years we have in our lives warranting an unbearable torment for eternity, and I would see anyone celebrating that even for the likes of the rogues gallery you presented as being sick. Even celebrating a just punishment would be strange to me (although I can still understand it) but for someone who believes that a hell of eternal torment exists to celebrate such a punishment seems horrible.

Indeed, I, like you, do not believe in such a hell, mainly because I cannot fathom an omnipotent being worthy of any admiration doling out such a punishment. And I cannot fathom, seeing justice in, let alone celebrating, such a punishment, even for the worst among us.

[Lord Jim]

Well Big RR, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this....

There are people who represent the absolute embodiment of evil, and I would in no way shape or form ever see anyone who believed in a permanent hell as in any way "sick" for being happy about believing that these monsters are consigned there...

I'm sure that given the numbers of religious believers on the planet, and the percentage of those that believe in a permanent hell, there are literally billions of folks who feel that way...

I see nothing "sick" about it....

[dales]

HELL=ETERNAL SEPERATION FROM GOD

[Big RR]

Jim--yep, that's the point we're at. However, my guess is that of these who believe in an eternal torment hell, few people would celebrate the eternal torment (even of those you individuals you describe), more who would accept it without any pleasure or sorrow in their fates, and some (not a lot necessarily) who would feel sorry for those "embodiments of evil" and what they face, regardless of what they did to merit it. And especially of the fundamentalist christians who believe that salvation is a gift, not something earned--a thing available to all sinners, I do think celebrating the punishment of those who rejected that gift to be incongruous with their faith (indeed, rejection of the gift of salvation is the only reason they are condemned).

Dales-that is a different concept of hell, an eternity of separation and regret but not physical torment. Another is that those who enter hell are immediately consumed by the fire and cease to exist (I recall DBA describing this as part of his beliefs). Another would be a hell where all you have to do is reconcile yourself with the ultimate reality to walk out, not a place of anyone's construction but your own and to which you ultimately hold the key (I lean toward this).

[Gob]

Indeed, I, like you, do not believe in such a hell, mainly because I cannot fathom an omnipotent being worthy of any admiration doling out such a punishment. And I cannot fathom, seeing justice in, let alone celebrating, such a punishment, even for the worst among us.

Bingo.

[rubato]

The idea that hell is a place of "eternal torment" is not biblical.

We've been over this before.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Well rubato, while I agree, I do recall texts that discuss "the eternal torment of the flame" in Revelation, and the parable of Lazarus and the beggar speaks of Lazarus being tormented by the fire (let alone the references to hell as a lake of fire and the wailing and gnashing of teeth of those in it). Granted I think these can (and should) be interpreted as more allegorical than literal, but some fundamentalists rely on these and other texts to refer to hell as a lace of eternal torment (seeing the verses that contradict this as the allegorical or context dependent ones). Theologians have debated this over and over, and I agree with the view that hell should not be seen as a place of eternal torment based (I think Jum does as well).

But that is beside the point; clearly some christian fundamentalists do believe as hell as a place of eternal punishment and torture of the wicked, and I still maintain that anyone who believes that and applauds such condemnation has something wrong with them.

[Gob]

and other texts to refer to hell as a lace of eternal torment .

[Lord Jim]

The idea that hell is a place of "eternal torment" is not biblical.

We've been over this before.

yrs,
rubato

Yes, indeed we have, and you were proven to not know what you were talking about when you made that claim the last time, which makes it doubly puzzling as to why you would bring it up again.....(Perhaps when you are proven wrong about something,, you simply erase that fact from your memory....that would certainly explain a lot...this is far from the first time that you have chosen to re-bring up something you were proven wrong about...)

"Hell" as a place of eternal punishment does not exist in scripture

22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
—Daniel 12:2

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
—Matthew 5:22

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
—Mark 9:44

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
—2 Thessalonians 1:9

[MajGenl.Meade]

some fundamentalists rely on these and other texts to refer to hell as a (p)lace of eternal torment (seeing the verses that contradict this as the allegorical or context dependent ones)

To be fair LJ, I think the verses you quote are strong on hell but not so strong on the "eternity" aspect of punishment. "Everlasting destruction" for example could be understood as some form of annihilation.

Be that as it may, Big RR can you cite some of the 'verses that contradict' the eternal torment understanding?

Meade

PS must say that 'lace of eternal torment' doesn't look so bad. I suppose though it would be one of those 'don't touch' places, eh Gob

[Crackpot]

but the everlasting portion rules annihilation out. once can't be annihilated unless there is a point where one reaches "nihil" making it a logical impossibility.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Depends. . . I'm not an annihilationist myself but "eternal destruction" (even in English) does not necessarily mean an ongoing act of destruction lasting for all time and beyond all time.

It could equally carry the sense of and indicate that the effect of destruction is eternal - separation from God without possibility of redemption. There is no return from that condition. That contrats with our present physical condition which will be destroyed by Death but only temporarily - our destruction is complete but not irrevocable - it is not 'eternal'.

“The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thess. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.”
Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W. (1996). Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (2:208). Nashville: T. Nelson.

When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven, part of the events surrounding the return of the Lord in the Day of the Lord, the wicked shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence (literally, “the Face”) of the Lord. The evil ones forever will be banished from the Lord’s presence, while the saved “shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:17). The difference is eternal.
Spirit filled life study Bible. 1997, c1991 (electronic ed.). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Meade

[Crackpot]

Some extra-Biblical theology for you on the subject of eternal damnation:

The penalty is Just. Like it or not since the penalty is known beforehand it is just. wether it is "deserved or not is moot since it is the penalty prescribed.

One cannot grant mercy until judgment is rendered. Until such point that judgment is rendered one cannot grant mercy. One can only change the penalty.

Nullifying or reducing the penalty undermines the purpose of the rule. It is plain that the purpose of of eternal torment to be the stick portion of the carrot and stick approach to obedience to God. The point being to encourage people toward God. Remove or reduce the penalty and you reduce the effectivity of push toward God. Opening up a "third alternative" allows for people move away from God which is contrary to Gods purpose. God wants all to join him in heaven. That being the case it makes absolutely no sense to allow for an alternative that would be considered acceptable or even preferable to us. (I know there have been times in my life that nothingness seemed a welcome alternative)

All of that being said in the long term I see no logical reason for "eternal torment" after all is done and we are all in the eternal city etc. etc. there is no reason to keep such place of torment around and as such it would seem both logical and merciful to annihilate it.

Iv'e noticed this logic applies for most of the perceived injustices in the bible. Things left intentionally vague or incomplete could well be due to the fact that if all was known it would allow for mankind in our never ending ability to miss the point and/or avoid responsibility to turn farther away from God.

Totally unbiblical example of how this could work. Say if God in his mercy allowed for multiple lifetimes for people to come to him (reincarnation) How do you think people would react to such a revelation? Do you think they'd spend their lives striving to find Truth and God.... or do you think they'd spend their lives reveling in sin all the while telling themselves.... I'll get it right next life.

[Scooter]

It depends on how reincarnation would work. If punishment for sin would be to come back as someone (or something) whose life is shittier than the one they have, and reward for not sinning would be a better life than currently, then there would be a clear inducement for not sinning.

[Crackpot]

Really?! I'd find that as reason to be spiteful toward God.

[Scooter]

More spiteful than towards a God who damns us to hell before we are even born, unless, take it upon ourselves to be "saved"?