Some people will believe anything

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
Personal philosophy welcomed.
Grim Reaper
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:21 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Grim Reaper »

dgs49 wrote:Nothing that is simple at first evolves into something that is more complex later. Does not happen. Never happened. Cannot happen. Take a thousand dogs of various breeds and mix them together and a hundred years later you will have a million similar-looking mutts. Take a thousand purebred dogs and a hundred years later you will have a million purebred dogs, just the same.
Except it has happened, and we have proof that it happened by looking at the fossil record. And evolution is a process that works over hundreds of thousands of years. You're looking at an infinitesimally small slice of time and determining that no large changes can happen. You're purposefully wearing blinders. It's the same as people who denied plate tectonics because we couldn't see the continents moving. But we can track plate movement now, and see how much the plates move each year. But we're still talking about something that we'll never see in our lifetimes. We'll never see Africa collide with Europe, that won't happen for another 600,000 years. But we don't need to see it happen right in front of us to know what happened before, and to derive predictions about what will happen in the future.

Same deal with evolution. It is not something that occurs overnight, but even with the past hundred or so years, we have seen a great deal of genetic variation in dogs. Try looking at a Chihuahua compared to a Great Dane or a wolf, the common ancestor of domesticated dogs. Give it another couple hundred thousand years and there will be some very strange looking animals in human households. Assuming you could even recognize the humans by then.

Grim Reaper
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:21 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Grim Reaper »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Way to beg the question. "These human ancestor bones prove evolutionary theories of the origin of humans because the evolutionary theories of human origins prove these bones are human ancestors". If you add the word "alleged" in several places then you are back on the scientific track.
Nice strawman garbage. I guess you're running out of arguments if you have to make up nonsense to argue against.
MajGenl.Meade wrote:They are monkeys and monkey derivatives that went nowhere. But of course to "scientists" they cannot be "monkeys" or "nothing of any importance" because they MUST fit into a theory against which not even the Cambrian explosion is permitted to interfere.
Most of them did go nowhere, one of the lines that did go somewhere ended up as us. Which of course calls into question the intelligence of the designer if so many creations have died out over the years. A 99.9% failure rate would have gotten someone fired a long time ago.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

And there it is ladies and gentlemen!

The proof of what is still (after all) a theory about the origins of life is that there are genetic variations in dogs! I.E. we have no proof of the theory so we'll point to something that actually happens and call it proof. Dogs is still dogs and they will still be dogs a couple of hundred thousand years from now (Theory of What's Happened So Far As Any Fule Kno)

And the fossil record - there's proof! Better tell the scientists because if it was proof (of evolutionary theories of origins) it wouldn't be a theory now would it? It would be a fact.

Note again the analogy put forward: any disagreement over the mechanisms of plate tectonics (even if a scientist came up with some new aspect) is logically counfounded by chanting "Aha you are denying that earthquakes happen!".

See the hat; see the rabbit.

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Grim Reaper wrote: Nice strawman garbage. I guess you're running out of arguments if you have to make up nonsense to argue against.
Oh damn! You said 'strawman' first so you win. Curses - now I'll have to admit I'm wrong

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Grim Reaper
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:21 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Grim Reaper »

I guess we're done here if you're just going to act childish. I expected better from you, but then I should have seen this coming after you compared me to a Nazi.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Oh GR for pity's sake....

First of all, I didn't compare you to a Nazi. I quoted dgs49 and commented on his use of the word "evolution" to mean two different things - a trick of the tongue that one of the world's most notorious propagandists would have appreciated. If anyone might complain about being compared to a Nazi it might be DD. Not you.

Secondly, first one to say "strawman" (or "passive-aggressive" or any number of other argument stoppers) wins the contest is my idea of a joke. Ha ha. If you see my thread "If I had a million dollars...." you'd see my wife's reaction to such.

Tra-la-la, tra-la-la, Tra-la-la, tra-la-la, Rum-tum-tiddle-um-tum (and I quote). Childish - yes, probably

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by dales »

I believe the following:
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

dgs49
Posts: 3458
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:13 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by dgs49 »

Mankind has not recorded the "evolution" of one species into any other species. A dog is a dog. It cannot mate with a cat or a bear or a human. In a hundred generations its decendants will still be dogs. They might look different because of cross breeding with different breeds, but they will still have doggie genetic markers.

Other than bacteria, mankind has not recorded any significant adaptation of any species to environmental conditions. No species has gotten significantly bigger, smaller, greener, fatter, or smarter, while on our watch.

No form of evolution has ever been witnessed or recorded by man, except by inference from fossil evidence, which has at times proved deceptive and false. Some species become extinct. That's it. That's all we have actually witnessed.

dgs49
Posts: 3458
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:13 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by dgs49 »

And I suppose we have seen fossil evidence that some species came into being that had apparently not existed before.

That's something.

Grim Reaper
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:21 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Grim Reaper »

dgs49 wrote:Mankind has not recorded the "evolution" of one species into any other species. A dog is a dog. It cannot mate with a cat or a bear or a human. In a hundred generations its decendants will still be dogs. They might look different because of cross breeding with different breeds, but they will still have doggie genetic markers.
You're still thinking too small, a hundred generations for dogs is still a very tiny time frame. You keep splitting things up too finely and you'll never see the changes. It's like looking at the frames of a movie and stating that no movement ever occurs.
dgs49 wrote:No form of evolution has ever been witnessed or recorded by man, except by inference from fossil evidence, which has at times proved deceptive and false. Some species become extinct. That's it. That's all we have actually witnessed.
99.9% of all species that have ever lived have become extinct. That's more than "some". And the fossil record has become stronger over time, that doesn't mean that everything we now know is completely wrong and should be ignored.

User avatar
Sue U
Posts: 8987
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Sue U »

dgs49 wrote:Mankind has not recorded the "evolution" of one species into any other species.

***

Other than bacteria, mankind has not recorded any significant adaptation of any species to environmental conditions. No species has gotten significantly bigger, smaller, greener, fatter, or smarter, while on our watch.

***

No form of evolution has ever been witnessed or recorded by man, except by inference from fossil evidence
You know, a simple google search demonstrates the opposite:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 470202579X

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/e ... tion.shtml

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Oh, and here's a video about a salamander species complex currently in the process of speciation:



ETA:

Also, homo sapiens sapiens hasn't even been around for very long (less than 200,000 years at the outside), and didn't have the capacity for what we think of as "modern" complex/abstract thought until about 50,000 years ago. When you consider that evolutionary changes resulting in speciation may take tens of millions of years, well, duh!
GAH!

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 19705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by BoSoxGal »

No species has gotten significantly bigger, smaller, greener, fatter, or smarter, while on our watch.
Haven't we?

As I recall, the statistical evidence also indicates humans are growing taller in the past century or two.

Something about adapting to a nutrient rich environment . . .
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Gob »



This is evolution observed in tuberculosis. The antibiotic works as environmental change or a predator. The reason we can observe tuberculosis evolve is because of the pressure put on it by the antibiotic and the rate of reproduction. We don't expect to see such changes as quickly in mammals and such, because of the rate of reproduction and stable environments. We can only observe this sort of evolution taking place on a larger scale by looking at the fossil record, as the process is much slower due to the rate of reproduction and environmental changes. And if we look to the fossil record what do we see? We see gradual change, just as predicted.

The evolution of bacteria is evolution in high speed, whereas animal species evolve much slower. The accumlated changes in tuberculosis are gained much quicker due to the antibiotic pressure and rate of reproduction. Now, look to the larger scale animals and imagine small accumulating changes over hundreds of millions of years due to environmental changes and reproduction. Again, the fossil record shows gradual change throughout the strata. That is why you'll never find a modern bald eagle with the feathered dinosuars like Epidexipteryx. They never lived together, but these feathered dinosaurs slowly evolved over millions of years accumulating small changes, and if those small changes are added up over millions of years you find amazing change and variety.

The fossil record is consistent.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Sean »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:And there it is ladies and gentlemen!

The proof of what is still (after all) a theory about the origins of life is that there are genetic variations in dogs! I.E. we have no proof of the theory so we'll point to something that actually happens and call it proof. Dogs is still dogs and they will still be dogs a couple of hundred thousand years from now (Theory of What's Happened So Far As Any Fule Kno)

And the fossil record - there's proof! Better tell the scientists because if it was proof (of evolutionary theories of origins) it wouldn't be a theory now would it? It would be a fact.
Well Gen'l, I'm going to assume that you do not know the meaning of the word 'theory' when used in scientific terms as the alternative explanation for that post does not bear thinking about...

Allow me (with more than a little help from the National Academy of Sciences) set you straight:
Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

The contention that evolution should be taught as a "theory, not as a fact" confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.

Source
You are, in fact, confusing the scientific term theory with the term hypothesis.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
loCAtek
Posts: 8421
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm
Location: My San Ho'metown

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by loCAtek »

Just on the subject of dogs; all the different breeds of dogs through history and today are of the same species: Canis familiaris. While the characteristics of the species appear different, in different breeds [size, strength, speed] their genetics are still the same.

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Sean »

Actually lo, their genetics are different. Their genes determine whether they are big or small, long or short-haired, etc.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
loCAtek
Posts: 8421
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm
Location: My San Ho'metown

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by loCAtek »

I stand corrected (sort of) but a dog's characteristics are based on the phenotypes of their genetics. The better word I could have used to describe the species genetics, is the Canine Genome. Man hasn't created a new 'species' since the dog split from the wolf.

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by Sean »

Dogs and wolves are both sub-species of Canis Lupus. They are of the same species.

Man does not tend to create new 'species'. That's not how natural selection works.
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Sean, thank you for the comments on theory. Understood and appreciated. I also agree that man does not create new species, with the possible exception of Dawkins and his computer paper.

But once again I must point to that slippery word "evolution".
(Theories) incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have....
I do agree that 'evolution' (finch beaks, big & little dogs) is not only theory, even in the above scientific sense, but also 'fact' and not theory at all. It long predates Darwin and recorded human history both. We find one element of it in ancient books including the Bible - selective breeding for desired traits.

In the post that you query, I tried hard not to refer to 'the theory of evolution' but instead to "evolutionary theories of origins". By this I intend to refer to the development of new species from older species. The fossil record does not bear witness to this. It does bear witness to a variety of animals of similar structure. These can be arranged into pleasing "lines" of succession that fit the theory. What does not fit the approved line is discarded or explained away - creationists and scientists are both adept at dismissing dating mechanisms that do not suit. i.e. we are all human, no pun intended

The evolutionary theory of origins is based upon "understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection". The experimentation and observation is of course related to evolution in the non-origins sense - i.e. selective adaptation. I suspect that TB virus evolves into more and less efficient strains of TB virus rather than (say) a new kind of flesh eating disease with a top hat. (The last item is a joke)

There can be no true experimentation or observation for the event(s) were singular and multi-millenia ago. That leaves "creative" (rather ironic that) reflection. Or as I put it, science by allegation. GR complained about my observation of a circular argument inherent in fossil record argumentation - a strawman I think he said but I don't see why it should be that and not an observation.

As to another matter, the argument from inefficiency is itself 100% defective. It assumes without evidence that a creative God is required to create a human without e.g. an appendix and four wisdom teeth in order to achieve His goals. It also ignores the element of the fallen condition of nature which has been warped from "good" to "quite spectacularly amoral". It also compares humanity to a poorly designed car that should be recalled and should never have made it off the drawing board. In a way, there's an element of truth to that - all humans have been and are going to be recalled and some will be redesigned perfectly in the way the designer intended all along. Others will be beyond repair/improvement and discarded.

If extinctions are offered as argument, the assumption has already been made that in an efficient universe (designed) there would have been no extinctions, which would rather crowd the Beltway.

Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

dgs49
Posts: 3458
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:13 pm

Re: Some people will believe anything

Post by dgs49 »

Note to BSG: The change in size would be significant only if it were an adaptation to environmental conditions.

The human increase in height is entirely related to nutrition. Ironically, I have personally witnessed this phenomenon in my wife's family. In the last generation to be raised in Italy, the average height of the men was 5'4". In the first full generation born in the U.S., the average height is about 5'10". (And the ALL married spouses who were "from" the same area of Italy).

Sue, I think those articles DESCRIBED speciation, but I don't think any of them observed it. It's a theory that seems to make sense, but other than for microorganisms, the examples I've seen noted are more wishful thinking than anything else.

Post Reply