In the beginning ...

[Big RR]

Otherwise you surely must argue that the fact that you do have a choice (strawberry jam or marmalade) is proof that there is no God. Or that God does not know everything before it happens. This God sits around being astounded at your selection of breakfast spread on the old toast - I think that's the God that Gob likes to imagine

And that is a problem because? Other than being "astounded" at the choice of my breakfast spread (anyone who knows me could make a reasonable guess, and even if I chose otherwise my choice would not be surprising, let alone astounding) would god cease being god because of a lack of knowing everything a priori, because god wanted humans to have free will? I think not.

Indeed, I'm not certain this goes against traditional judeochristan understanding. Take Job, for example, why would the devil choose to bet with god if god knew what Job would do ahead of time? True factual story or allegory, it would make no sense if god knew everything which would occur.

[Sue U]

I gotta say, this all seems rather silly to me. You make up a deity whom you imbue with the magical powers of your choice (omniscient or not so much; omnipotent or limited, active director or passive observer, etc.) and then torture yourselves over what it all means for your lives. Why? It seems to me that in earlier times "God" was simply our tribal cult deity, Yahweh, who was in competition with Baal and Asherah and a host of other West Semitic deities; monotheism was only a gradually emerging concept that eventually supplanted Canaanite and Ugaritic cosmologies and spread west. These are characters about whom we told stories as metaphors for explaining the world and our place in it. Gods -- whether Hebrew, Greek, Hittite, Indian, Egyptian, whatever -- are literary devices we use to talk about ourselves; the nature or even existence of a god is fundamentally immaterial. It is the stories we tell and the meaning we derive from them that matters.

[thestoat]

Nicely put, Sue

[thestoat]

Jesus died for the sins of the world the others you listed did not.

Lots of texts suggest Mithra died for the sins of his people.

[loCAtek]

We didn't make it up: we became aware of it.

Our perceptives change and/or are seen differently; personal interpretation is more proof for divinity than against it.

A stagnate god would be more false; and stagnation (Only one book; only one religion ) is often the atheist argument criticizing spirituality. If there's now diversity, wasn't that what was requested?

[Sue U]

Explain to me how "God" is any less "made up" than Baal or Asherah or El or Zeus or Astarte or Vishnu or Ahuramazda or Isis or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[thestoat]

and stagnation (Only one book; only one religion ) is often the atheist argument criticizing spirituality. If there's now diversity, wasn't that what was requested?

Nothing to do with diversity. The atheist requests only truth.

[Big RR]

Explain to me how "God" is any less "made up" than Baal or Asherah or El or Zeus or Astarte or Vishnu or Ahuramazda or Isis or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Well sue, that's the essence of faith and belief (and FWIW, I haven't studied any of those past or present perceived deities, so I have no opinion on whether or how they were made up--except for the spaghetti monster, that was described as made up from the beginning). And that's the point, one can choose to believe and seek understanding or not. FWIW, it hardly seems like torture to me, any more than philosophical discussions are; religion is a tool to enhance understanding (or at its best it is). these questions are asked and the answers sought both within and outside of a religious context, and will continue to be asked and pondered. Indeed, I find it more fun than torture, but perhaps I am a masochist.

[dales]

Jesus died for the sins of the world the others you listed did not.

Lots of texts suggest Mithra died for the sins of his people.

That may be true but did Mithra RISE FROM THE GRAVE?

If Jesus did not conquer death, the entire reason for being Christian is meaningless.

[Big RR]

But then, so did Lazurus, the son of the widow of Nain, and Jairus' daughter in the time of the ministry of Jesus. And I think Elijah also raised the son of a widow from the dead (I realy don't know where this i in the bible, I only recognize it from when I sang Elijah). Resurrection from the dead is not unprecedented, the teachings of jesus are.

[Andrew D]

Now it happened after these things that the son of the woman who owned the house became sick. And his sickness was so serious that there was no breath left in him. So she said to Elijah, “What have I to do with you, O man of God? Have you come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?”
And he said to her, “Give me your son.” So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed. Then he cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?” And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.
And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!”
Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in your mouth is the truth.”

(I Kings 17:17-24 (NKJV).)

[Gob]

And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!”

A trick no priest has yet replicated...

[Big RR]

Thanks Andrew.

Gob--Indeed, although some have stretched themselves out on children numerous times.

[thestoat]

That may be true but did Mithra RISE FROM THE GRAVE?

Yes, loads of them ROSE FROM THE GRAVE. The whole point of these gods is to defeat death. Attis did it, as did Mithra, Osiris, etc. They typically has humble births that were attended by three wise men or kings or whatever, typically virgin births, died and rose after 3 days. They often had 12 disciples too.

[dales]

That might be true but only Jesus took away the sins of the world.

[Sean]

Maybe he took away the sins of the world that week...

[dales]

I didn't get the memo

[Sean]

Really? Some bloke called Gideon was handling the distribution of that one...

[Gob]

Maybe he took away the sins of the world that week...

Bugger! I enjoy my "sins", they're lifes greatest pleasures...

[loCAtek]

On NPR yesterday, heard some intersting input from a caller.

The topic was secular Judaism, but a lady phoned in and made some provocative comments (I'd link if I could but they don't record the phone forum) She claimed to have been raised atheist, but was aware that it was proven that those who were atheist had a different brain chemistry, than those who were theist. This did not mean they were more intelligent, which is often the argument, because she had observed many highly scientific and intellectual people, to be "theologians". So, she called herself 'conservative'.

She called to state there could be religious middle-ground in those who chose to be religious and secular.


...


...which got me to thinking; there have been studies that indicate humans are hardwired to believe in some kind spirituality.


Like lesbians who were forced into male/female marriages by society, only to discover that they were not heterosexual; ...Are atheists not so much discovering by intellect, anything new, but are becoming aware that they have different brain wiring from other's; other people that can tap into the spiritual?

Atheism is not better nor worse, just a different brain pattern/personality.

Which explains what Stoat asked of me a bit ago: Why: When was I raised by an atheist, with a scientific education; Why was I not an atheist? Answer: My thought wiring was quite normal, in that it was geared towards seeking spiritualism.

Believe me; I've had a lot of conditioning that should have made me much more materialistic; but my thinking, my cognition, always lead me to seek a higher power. To use my 'sixth sense'.

Intelligence didn't dampen that, nor eclipse it.

After all, 'Buddha' translates as 'thought'.