You have to laugh

[Sean]

(BTW X-tain Scientists operate on the idea that science works because the material world doesn't exist anyway.)

lol - I was unaware of that! Mentalists rather than scientists then IMO...

[loCAtek]

BTW, I have never heard of saints in the jewish faith--does anyone know if there really are some ( I know the OT references prophets, but are these the same as what the RC church refers to as saints?). The same question re islam.

Tombs of Jewish Saints




Some of the more important saints include:



Ksar El Kbir - Rabbi Yehuda Jabali



Ouezzane - R. Amran Bendiwane (18th century - Moulay Ali, head of Ouezzanines, religious brotherhood, brought in Jews to improve commerce and improve the prosperity of the city, which up to then had been considered off-limits to Jews)



Fez - Lalla Solica Tasadika and R. Haim Cohen, Yhouda Ben Attar, Clock Tower of Maimonides



Sefrou - R. Moshe Elbaz and the masters of the Cave, Eliahou Harraoch, David Arazil,
Rabat - Sale R. Eliezer de Avila and Raphael Encaoua, Mohammed V, Chalom Zaoui Ben Ahmed - Yahia Elkhder
Settat - Abraham Awriwel Essaouira region (Ait Bouyoud 40 kms.) - Nessim Ben Nessim



Essaouira - Chaim Pinto



Demnate - David Eldrah Halevy



Ourika - Saloman Ben Elhans



Marrakech region (40 kms. on Route de Ouarzazate) Moulay Iggy (David Laskar)



Marrakech - Hanania Cohen



Ouarzazate region - David Oumouchy



Taroudant - David Ben Baruk Cohen Azog



Ifrane Anti-Atlas - 50 Nesrafimes or Jewish martyrs

Casablanca - Eliahou, Sidi Belyout (Muslim)



El Jadida - Yahia Assouline



Azzemour - Abrahma Moul Niss

Meknes - Haim Messas, David Boussidan, Raphael Berdugo



Tangier - Mordehai Bengio Beni Mellal - Chlomo Amar, David Benyamine, Bzou - Sidi Moul El Berj Antifa - Youssef Abajayou Sidi Rahal - Yaacob Nahamias (Moul Lma)



Tetouan - Isaac Benoualide

Safi - Ben Zmero brothers, Abraham Soultan, Youssef Dalili, Messod Mimoua, Mimoun Benouaich Debdou - Youssef Bensimon, Jacob Cohen, Ishak Ben Moche Cohen, Mardochee Ben Moche Cohen, Moche Ben Sultan

8.2: Pronouncements of (Islamic) saints

1. Khawaja Mu‘in-ud-Din Chishti of Ajmer (d. 1236 C.E.)
He was the mujaddid of his time and the saint who laid the foundations of the propagation of Islam in India. He wrote the following verses:

1. “Every moment the Holy Spirit [angel Gabriel] inspires into Mu‘in,
“So it is not me who says this, but the fact is that I am the second Jesus.”

(Diwan Khawaja Ajmeri, ode no. 70, p. 102)

2. “If the Holy Spirit continues bringing its help,
“Every day in the world the Mary of the time would give birth to a Jesus.”

(ibid.)

3. It is recorded:

“Once in our presence a man came to enter into the discipleship of the Khawaja of Ajmer. The Khawaja asked him to recite the Kalima [i.e. There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah]. The man recited the Kalima. The Khawaja said to him: ‘Say it like this, There is no god but Allah and Chishti is the Messenger of Allah’. The man did so, and the Khawaja accepted the pledge from him and invested him with the robe of honour.”

(Fawa’id as-Salikeen, p. 18)

2. Shaikh Ahmad of Sirhind (d. 1624 C.E.)
Known in India and Pakistan as Mujaddid Alif Sani (Mujaddid of the second millenium of Islam), this saint and scholar wrote:

1. “But that Sufi who, after attaining fana and baqa, and sair an-illa b-illa [i.e. contact and nearness with God], turns to the world and calls people to the way of truth, he attains a part of prophethood, and is classed with those who deliver the commandments of the faith.”

(Maktubat, Daftar I, letter no. 48, p. 120)

2. “Though the office of prophethood has been ended, still the perfect followers of the prophets can share some attainments and characteristics of prophethood through inheritance and obedience.”

(ibid., Daftar II, letter no. 6, p. 25)

3. “I am the disciple of God and also His intention. My devotion to God is linked directly to Him without any intermediary. My hand is the representative of God’s hand. Glory be to Him! So I am the disciple of the Holy Prophet Muhammad as well as his spiritual brother.”

(ibid., Daftar III, letter no. 87, p. 209)

4. “It should be known that it is allowable that a person attain nearness to prophethood by the path of attaining to sainthood, and have something of both of these.”

(Letter no. 123, p. 348)

5. “During spiritual progress, I reached the station of Usman [the third Caliph of Islam] and, passing beyond it, reached the station of Farooq [Umar, the second Caliph]. Passing beyond that, I reached the station of Siddiq [Abu Bakr, the first Caliph]. Passing beyond that, I reached the station of being the beloved of God, and saw in myself the reflection of all the light and blessings of this station.”

(Letter of Shaikh Ahmad quoted by Moghal emperor Jehangir in his diary, Tauzak Jehangiri, p. 272, published in Ghazipur, 1863)

6. “Since the religious law brought by the Holy Prophet Muhammad is protected from abrogation and alteration, for this reason the learned ones of the Muslim nation have been given the place of prophets.”

(Maktubat, Daftar I, letter no. 209, p. 34)

7. “Due to their complete devotion and overflowing love, rather, as a mere gift and favour, the perfect followers of the prophets absorb the attainments of the prophet they follow, and become fully coloured with his colour, so much so that between the prophets and the followers there remains no difference, except that the prophet reaches his position directly while the follower attains it through obedience, or that the prophet precedes and the follower comes after ... so one cannot imagine equality between the original and the image (zill).”

(ibid., letter no. 248)

8. “A follower attains such a likeness to the one he follows that there no longer remains the concept of ‘following’, and the distinction between the follower and the mentor vanishes. It appears as if whatever the follower obtains, while being in the colour of his prophet, is obtained directly from God, as if the two of them are drinking from the same fountain and are in each other’s arms, and are in the same bed, and are hand-in-glove. Where is the follower, and who is the master, and whose obedience! In their unity there remains no room for separateness, and there appears no difference between the acts of following and of being followed.”

(ibid., Daftar II, letter no. 54, p. 172)

3. Khawaja Habib-ullah Attar of Kashmir (15th century saint)
He instructed a disciple of his as follows about the Kalima:

“Lengthen your saying of la ilaha [‘There is no god’], and efface the thought of all others than God from the heart. After that, ill-Allah [‘except Allah’] should be stressed, and you should consider me to be the messenger of Allah.”

(Masnawi Bahr al-Irfan, vol. i, p. 179)

4. Baba Dawud Khaki
He wrote the following in praise of his spiritual guide Hazrat Makhdum of Kashmir:

“As the Holy Prophet Muhammad has said that the spiritual guide is like a prophet,
“How can a man be a believer who denies such a prophet.”

(Wird al-Murideen)

5. Ali Hujwiri, Data Ganj Bakhsh (d. 1071 C.E.)
This renowned saint of Lahore, author of the acclaimed Persian classic Kashf al-Mahjub, wrote:

1. “So God has kept the proof of the truth of the Holy Prophet Muhammad alive till today, and has made the saints the means through which it is displayed, so that the signs of God and the evidence of the Holy Prophet’s truth be manifested forever.”

(Kashf al-Mahjub, Persian, p. 167)

2. “The saint does not reach perfection till he enters the circle of the prophets.”

(As quoted in the Urdu book The Constitution of Pakistan and the Ahmadiyya Sect, p. 23)

6. Farid-ud-Din Shakar Ganj of Pak Patan (d. 1265 C.E.)
He says in a poetic verse:

“I am wali [saint], I am Ali, I am nabi [prophet].”

(Haqiqat Gulzar Sabiri, by Shah Muhammad Hasan Sabiri, first published in Rampur, 1886, sixth edition published by Maktaba Sabiriyya, Qasur, Pakistan, 1983, p. 414. See also well-known Urdu daily Nawa-i Waqt, Lahore, Pakistan, 4 July 1964.)

7. Anwar as-Sufiyya
In this Lahore monthly magazine, it said in an article under the heading Sainthood:

“What greater proof of the truth of the teachings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and his blessings can there be than the fact that whoever follows him perfectly receives a ‘reflected’ (zilli) prophethood from God, is given the task of preaching to mankind, and is appointed a khalifa or deputy for the support of the religion of Islam. There have been such exalted persons in every age, and there will continue to be such persons in the future, regarding whom the Holy Prophet has said: ‘The learned ones of my nation are like the prophets of Israel’.”

(Anwar as-Sufiyya, vol. iv, no. 3, December 1907, p. 12)

8. Sultan Bahu (d. 1691 C.E.)
He was the first Punjabi mystical poet. He wrote:

1. “The station of fana fish-shaikh [self-annihilation in one’s spiritual mentor] means that whenever the seeker-after-God should imagine the figure of his spiritual guide in his heart, the latter should come forthwith [spiritually] and lead him by the hand to the company of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. Such a guide is referred to as yuhyi wa yumeet [an expression in the Quran meaning He gives life and causes death].”

(Kaleed at-Tauheed, pp. 37 – 38)

2. He writes in poetic verse:

“The arsh [Throne], the kursi [Chair], the luh [Tablet] and the Qalam [Pen] are all in the heart. He who finds the heart, grieves no more.” (ibid., p. 18)

(The terms arsh etc. are all well-known expressions in the Quran, referring to various attributes of God such as His power and knowledge.)

“I am a bird of no abode, I live nowhere but in no abode. So being a dervish is my mark, and I am fana fi-llah [effaced in God].” (ibid., p. 61)

“Because of inner light, God’s revelation is received every moment [by a saint]. Because of [the Quranic words] We are nigh, he attains Divine nearness and company.
“He who is looked upon favourably by a dervish, his rank is higher than that of the Divine Throne.”

(ibid., p. 180)

“I know only the Truth, I see only the Truth, I cry only Truth,
“Truth is in me and I am in the Truth, this is the Truth.”

(ibid., p. 194; Truth here refers to the name of God, Haqq, in the Quran.)

9. Khawaja Shah Sulaiman Tonsovi (d. 1852 C.E.)

1. The following verses of poetry were written in his praise:

“Arise by God’s command was a miracle at the hand of Jesus, but you made thousands into Messiahs by a single breath.
“When Moses beheld the Divine light on the mountain, he fainted and lost consciousness of the world.
“But you O Kalim-ullah [name of Moses] see that light every instant, and still display a smile, desire and full understanding.
“You are the light of God, your light is in both the worlds. The Throne, the Chair and the stars all display your light.
“You are the sun, you are the moon, you are the light upon light. You are the light of Muhammad, you are the key to the hearts.
“The seal of your sainthood is the seal in your finger-ring. What a glorious sainthood, having the rank of messengership (risalat).”

(Manaqib al-Mahbubin, pp. 249 – 250)

2. “Hazrat Siyalwi then mentioned a dream of the Khawaja, to wit, that one night he dreamt that over his head and under his feet and to his right and left had been placed the Holy Quran. He asked a learned man the interpretation of this dream. He said: Congratulations, you will abide by the Holy Quran under all circumstances.”

(Miraat al-‘ashiqeen, p. 28)

10. Hazrat Said Ameer of Koth (d. 1877 C.E.)
He was a well-known saint of Koth, district Mardaan, (North-West province of Indian sub-continent) during the late nineteenth century.

1. It is recorded about him:

“On Sunday the 21st of the month of Rajab, the holy saint received in revelation from God the following verses of the Holy Quran:... ‘O Prophet, Keep your duty to God and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites; surely God is ever-knowing and wise’,... ‘Indeed there is for you in the Messenger of God an excellent example for him who hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God much’.”

(Nazm al-Durrar fi Silk al-Siyar, by Mulla Safi-ullah, disciple of Said Ameer, p. 152; see also its Urdu translation Durr-i Israr by Abdur-Razzaq Kausar, Sahibzada Book Foundation, Koth, Pakistan, 1985, p. 266)

2. He said:

“Know that to be appointed by God means messengership, and everyone who is appointed is a messenger (rasul).”

(ibid., p. 100; Urdu translation, p. 175)

11. Maulana Abdullah Ghaznavi
He was a disciple of Hazrat Said Ameer, and it is recorded about him that he received many Divine revelations which contained verses from the Holy Quran. See Section 4.3, extract no. 18.

12. Shah Wali-ullah of Delhi (d. 1763 C.E.)
This renowned Islamic philosopher, writer and theologian, recognised as mujaddid of his time, wrote:

“It was put into my mind to convey to the people that this poor one has been taught many languages ... The teaching which was given to Adam was me, the Divine help which Noah received during the flood was me, the fire which cooled for Abraham was me, the Torah revealed to Moses was me, the miracle of raising the dead granted to Jesus was me, the Quran given to Muhammad the Holy Prophet was me. All praise is due to God, the Lord of all the worlds.”

(Tafhimat, Part I, as quoted in journal Curzon Gazette, 15 October 1902).

13. Sayyid Muhammad Ismail Shaheed (d. 1831 C.E.)
He writes in praise of his leader Sayyid Ahmad Barelvi (Muslim religious and military leader in North-West India in early nineteenth century) as follows:

“Joseph has now come to Egypt from Canaan, and a whole world has come for his purchase.
“To give life to the dead the breath of Jesus has now come into the world.
“From Madina my Ahmad has come, from the cave of Saur, to teach the Ansar.
“Sayyid Ahmad came one day with his companions. You should say that the Last of the Prophets came again with his Companions.”

(Najm al-Saqib, vol. ii)

The name ansar is applied to a group of the Companions of the Holy Prophet. Here Sayyid Ahmad Barelvi has been called Joseph, Jesus, Ahmad (Holy Prophet Muhammad), and even the Last of the Prophets. His companions have been called Companions of the Holy Prophet. Such expressions are used because of the similarity and likeness which the saints bear to prophets.

14. Khawaja Mir Dard of Delhi (d. 1785 C.E.)
This famous saint, author and poet, wrote:

“Every perfect man is the Jesus of his time due to the all-encompassing power of God. And every moment he faces for his own self the affair of the soul of Jesus.”

(Risala Dard, p. 211)

15. Shah Niyaz Ahmad of Delhi (d. 1834 C.E.)
He described his spiritual experiences as follows:

“Sometimes I am Idris [Biblical Enoch], sometimes Seth, sometimes Noah, sometimes Jonah, sometimes Joseph, sometimes Jacob, and sometimes Hud. Sometimes I am Salih, sometimes Abraham, sometimes Isaac, sometimes Yahya [Biblical John, the Baptist], sometimes Moses, sometimes Jesus, and sometimes David.”
“I am Jesus son of Mary, and I am Ahmad Hashmi [i.e. Holy Prophet Muhammad].”

(Diwan-e Niaz Barelavi, compiled by Dr. Anwar-ul-Hasan, Lucknow, 1967, p. 68 and p. 65)

16. Khawaja Muhammad Nasir Muhammadi (d. 1758 C.E.)
He wrote in his famous work Nala-yi-Andalib (‘Lamentation of the Nightingale’):

“There have been perfect, and still more perfect, saints among the Muslims. In terms of their spiritual progress and path of development, some were like Adam, some like Noah, some like Abraham, some like David, some like Jacob, some like Moses, some like Jesus, and some were like Muhammad.”

(Nala-yi-Andalib, vol. i, p. 243)

17. Shaikh Sabir Kalyari
He wrote of Sufi Sayyid Abid Mia Usmani Naqshbandi as follows:

“I call him Ka‘ba, or Quran, or Prophet, or God.”

(Mi‘raj-ul-Mu’mineen, pp. 144 – 145)

18. Nasir-ud-Din Chiragh of Delhi (d. 1356 C.E.)
He was the successor of the famous saint Nizam-ud-Din Auliya. In a verse of poetry, he says:

“O you outwardly pious one! What do you ask me concerning the rank of qurb [nearness to God]. It is in me and I am in it, as fragrance is in the rose.”

19. Shah Sharf Abu Ali Qalendar of Panipat (d. 1323 C.E.):

“Moses fainted upon seeing the Divine fire manifested in a tree,
“But I see that very fire in every tree.”

20. Maulana Abu Muhammad Abdul Haqq Haqqani
This modern theologian writes in his Urdu commentary of the Quran:

“A follower of the Holy Prophet may be granted that pure soul which reflects his [the Holy Prophet’s] light, just as a mirror reflects the light of the sun. Then, occasionally, supernatural signs which are known as karamat begin to be shown at his hand. Such a person is called a saint. There are many types of saints, such as ghaus and qutb etc., but there is no scope to discuss it in detail here.”

(Tafsir Haqqani, Prologue, p. 5)

21. Shaikh Abdul Haqq Muhaddis of Delhi (d. 1642 C.E.)
He was an expert of Hadith and a most famous theologian of India. In his commentary on Abdul Qadir Jilani’s book Futuh-ul-Ghaib, he wrote:

“Sainthood is the image (zill) of prophethood.”

(Sharh Futuh-ul-Ghaib, p. 12)

22. Allama Dr Sir Muhammad Iqbal (d. 1938)
This renowned poet and philosopher of modern India and Pakistan composed the following verses in praise of the saint of Delhi Nizam-ud-Din Auliya:

“What the angels read, that is your name. Great is your status, widespread is your grace.
“A visit to your shrine is life for the heart. Your rank is higher than that of the Messiah or Khizr.”

(Baang-e Dara, under Iltija’-e Musaafir)

23. Maulana Mahmud-ul-Hasan of Deoband (d. 1920)
He was a very well-known teacher at the Deoband theological school. He wrote a long poem in eulogy of his two spiritual guides, Maulavi Rashid Ahmad Gangohi (d. 1905) and Maulana Muhammad Qasim Nanotavi (d. 1880), who founded the school in 1867. Some verses are given below:

“Qasim the good and Rashid Ahmad, both possessors of glory, the two of them were the Messiah of the age and Joseph of Canaan.
“They saved the faith from the samaris [corrupters of religion] of the age. I say that the two of them were like Moses and Amran.
“To be in their company and to serve them was, for the dead hearts, nothing less than [the dead] being commanded by Jesus to Arise.”

(Kuliyat Shaikh al-Hind, pp. 14 – 17)

Lamenting the demise of Maulavi Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, he wrote:

“Those who follow their low desires are perhaps proclaiming: Glory to Hubal! [a god of pre-Islamic Arabs], because one like the Founder of Islam has departed from the world. The Messiah of the age has gone to the sky, leaving everyone behind.
“He raised the dead to life, and let not the living die. Just look at this Messianic work, O son of Mary.
“Those who have the taste and zeal for spirituality in their hearts, they were looking for the way to Gangoh even when in Makka.”

(Marsiyya, by Maulana Mahmud-ul-Hasan)

24. Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi (d. 1943)
He was a well-known Deobandi theologian of earlier this century. In his magazine he published a letter from a disciple, explaining the following problem:

“I see in a dream that while reciting the Kalima, ‘There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah’, I am using your name instead of Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Thinking that I am wrong, I repeat the Kalima, but despite wishing in my heart to say it correctly, my tongue involuntarily says Ashraf Ali instead of the Holy Prophet’s name. ... When I wake up and remember my mistake in the Kalima, ... to make amends for the mistake I send blessings upon the Holy Prophet. However, I am still saying: ‘O Allah, bless our master, prophet and leader Ashraf Ali,’ even though I am awake and not dreaming. But I am helpless, and my tongue is not in my control.”

The reply given by the Maulana, printed after the letter, is as follows:

“In this incident, it was intended to satisfy you that the one to whom you turn [for spiritual guidance, i.e. Ashraf Ali] is a follower of the Holy Prophet’s example.”

(Monthly Al-Imdad, issue for the month of Safar, 1336 A.H., circa 1918, p. 35)

25. Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan (d. 1921)
He founded the Barelvi group at the end of the nineteenth century, which is much opposed to the Deobandis. It is recorded about him:

“Issue no. 2: The Darood [prayers to invoke blessings upon the Holy Prophet Muhammad], instead of being invoked upon the Holy Prophet, should be invoked upon ‘his eminence’ [Ahmad Raza Khan], as his disciples are always saying in his honour: ‘Allah bless and send peace upon the servant of the Holy Prophet, Maulana Ahmad Raza’.”

(Al-Janna li-ahl al-Sunna, p. 127, as quoted in Deoband Se Barelli Tak, 3rd edition, 1971, Idara Islamiyyat, Lahore, p. 122)

26. Shaikh Sadiq Gangohi
This saint told a disciple to say:

“There is no god but Allah, and Sadiq is the messenger of Allah.”

(Al-Takashaf an Mahmat al-Tasawwuf, p. 594)

27. Maulana Abdul Majid Daryabadi (d. 1977)
He was an Indian religious scholar of recent times. Regarding the use of the word nabi for saints, who are not prophets, he once wrote in his newspaper as follows:

“Recently, by co-incidence, I found an example of it in the poetry of Maulana Rumi. And that too, not in some apocryphal work, but in the renowned and famous, authentic book Masnawi. Regarding the status and excellence of the spiritual guide it is written:

‘When you give your hand into the hand of a spiritual guide, you seek to imbibe wisdom as the mentor is the knowing and discerning. O disciple, he is a prophet of his time, as his person radiates the light of the Prophet.’

“It is clearly stated here that the perfect spiritual guide is the prophet of the time because he reflects the light of prophethood. Great theologians, philosophers, and spiritual men have written commentaries on the Masnawi, but none of them took exception to this form of expression. Rumi’s own son, Sultan Walad, has made the following comment: ‘The exaggeration in likening a saint to a prophet refers to the penetrating effect of his guidance; otherwise, at no time was prophethood thinkable after the Holy Prophet Muhammad.’ — Masnawi, vol. v, p. 67, footnote 13, printed at Kanpur.

“Obviously we will still call it lacking in due caution, but it is equally obvious that instances of such lack of caution are to be found in the writings of the great religious leaders of classical times.”

(Newspaper Sidq Jadeed, 8 August 1952)

28. Pir Jama‘at Ali Shah
It is written about him in a poem:

“Madina is holy and blessed, and so is Alipur. It is well to go there, and well to come here.
“Your court is that court which is the qibla [Muslim direction of prayer] for mankind. Your tomb is the shrine which rivals the Holy House of God [in Makka].”

(Anwar as-Sufiyya, published 1930, p. 9, quoted in Raza Khani Deen, p. 54)

29. Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal (d. 1938)
In praise of the perfect believer, he writes in a poem:

“He is Kalim [Moses], he is Masih [Messiah], he is Khalil [Abraham].
“He is Muhammad, he is the Quran, he is Gabriel.”

(Javaid Nama)

[loCAtek]

(BTW X-tain Scientists operate on the idea that science works because the material world doesn't exist anyway.)

lol - I was unaware of that! Mentalists rather than scientists then IMO...

Sounds more like Quantum Physicists.

[loCAtek]

As said; "you have to laugh.."

If you don't understand, sure!

[loCAtek]

Why is following the tenets put forward by one the standard for one but a simple "I said so" suitable for the other?

Being a follower of Christ is the only tenet you have to follow in order to be termed a Christian so they are following the tenets.

ETA: Unless of course there are further qualifications that I am unaware of... Do you know of any CP?

From, Answers.com;

The central belief in Christianity is the trust in Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior.

A good statement of the beliefs that flow from this center is contained in the APostle's Creed.

"

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy catholic Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting."


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_ ... z1BLwR4KJ1

[Crackpot]

Are you following someone if you say you are yet you're moving in the opposite direction?

[Gob]

Yes, if you are talking about religion, as it's all down to your relationship with your personal Jesus/spagetti monster/Pixie.

I for example am a Sephardic Jew.

[Lord Jim]

I seem to recall someone, (Big RR perhaps, but I'm not sure) trying to make the rather odd argument that one could be a "Christian" without believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ....(which is something more than "a cool dude")

I'd have to say that's pretty much the minimal requirement for being a Christian, since the whole foundation of Christianity rests on that premise.

[Sean]

Are you following someone if you say you are yet you're moving in the opposite direction?

People who commit atrocities in the name of Jesus are no less Christian than the pope. They just have a different interpretation on what following Christ means and what he would like them to do. There is no opposite direction... just different interpretations.

[loCAtek]

Yes, if you are talking about religion, as it's all down to your relationship with your personal Jesus/spagetti monster/Pixie.

I for example am a Sephardic Jew.

Right.

There are several subgroups of Jews with different culture and traditions:
Ashkenazic: Descendants of Jews from France, Germany and Eastern Europe
Sephardic: Descendants of Jews from Spain, Portugal, North Africa and the Middle East
Mizrachi: Descendants of Jews from North Africa and the Middle East
Other subgroups are Yemenite, Ethiopian and Oriental

[Sean]

I seem to recall someone, (Big RR perhaps, but I'm not sure) trying to make the rather odd argument that one could be a "Christian" without believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ....(which is something more than "a cool dude")

I'd have to say that's pretty much the minimal requirement for being a Christian, since the whole foundation of Christianity rests on that premise.

Actually LJ I would say that I completely agree with Big RR (or whoever it was) on this one. If a person studied the teachings of Jesus and decided to live their life by those teachings why should they not be regarded as a follower of his?

It doesn't matter whether they see him as a divine being or a bloody good bloke... I would say that the vast majority of Christians believe in the divine Jesus but I don't see it as a prerequisite.

[Gob]

[Lord Jim]

If a person studied the teachings of Jesus and decided to live their life by those teachings why should they not be regarded as a follower of his?

Then that person would be someone who decided that they would follow the philosophy of Jesus....

They would not be a "Christian"....."Christ" means "Messiah"....

If you do not believe that Jesus was The Messiah, than no matter what regard you have for his teachings, you cannot be a "Christian"....

There are many Jews who consider Jesus to be a great teacher, and as LoCa pointed out, he's also held in high regard in the Koran....

That doesn't make Jews and Muslims "Christians"...

[loCAtek]

Roger that, Mohammed (founder of Islam) respected Jesus and mentioned him in the Koran, but Mohammed was definably not a Christian.

If you accept Christ as your Savior (Messiah) not just a prophet, or otherwise cool dude; you are are a Christian.

[Sean]

If a person studied the teachings of Jesus and decided to live their life by those teachings why should they not be regarded as a follower of his?

Then that person would be someone who decided that they would follow the philosophy of Jesus....

They would not be a "Christian"....."Christ" means "Messiah"....

...and Messiah means 'Anointed One' which is somebody who is qualified to carry out God's work through being literally anointed with holy oil. It doesn't mean 'Son of God' or anything divine. That is merely an interpretation of the word.

See, we're back to interpretation again...

If you do not believe that Jesus was The Messiah, than no matter what regard you have for his teachings, you cannot be a "Christian"....

There are many Jews who consider Jesus to be a great teacher, and as LoCa pointed out, he's also held in high regard in the Koran....

That doesn't make Jews and Muslims "Christians"...

Of course it doesn't. Jews and Muslims see Jesus as one great teacher amongst others. Christians see him as the great teacher. Therein lies the difference.

[loCAtek]

So, it's your personal choice(or not) to accept Christ as your savior, as he is a Messiah.

[Big RR]

Jim--

If you do not believe that Jesus was The Messiah, than no matter what regard you have for his teachings, you cannot be a "Christian"....

Who has the authority to define who is a "christian" and who is not? Certainly no person, and Jesus never said (at least as recorded in the gospels) that one must fill certain criteria in order to be a follower of him. Indeed, most of the talk of belief in the death/resurrection comes from later books in the bible, not the recorded sayings of jesus. True Jesus talks about belief in him(self), but is this a belief in his teachings and philosophy, or in the traditional christian belief of redemption through the death/resurrection? It's hard to say, isn't it?

Clearly there are many different views; Paul places the death resurrection at the center of the then-burgeoning christian faith, but later church leaders and authorities instituted many other articles de fe, from belief in the "one true" church and its apostolic authority, to surrender of any right to dissent, etc. Roman catholics would, until recently, say protestants are not "christian" (and many biblical literalist protestants would say the same of catholics), but that is immaterial. People can call themselves what they choose, but in the end the only thing that matters is a man's (or woman's) oneness with his/her god, something beyond the control of any other. It's a bit silly to claim anything different, especially since jesus was a practicing jew throughout his life and never sought to sever that. We have brains to allow u to decide for ourselves what we believe; no one owns christianity.

[Gob]

I'm thinking of Rastfarianism next, possibly with a bit of Mormonism.

Smoke dope all day, eight wives to screw, sounds neat.

[dgs49]

I think that "Christians" ought to have something to say about who is a Christian.

We have two thousand years of scripture and history, and a fairly clear orthodoxy has evolved. The different Christian sects have disagreements on the margins (e.g., infant baptism, the "Sacraments"), but the basic theology is not much open to question.

Hence, a group that believes that Adam, Michael the Archangel and Jesus Christ are one and the same person - even if they include the name "Jesus Christ" in their official title - are NOT Christians.

Oddball belief systems have always existed on the outskirts of every organized religion, the more successful the more of them there are. Many who claim to be "Jews" are atheists. Dare I say, bullshit?

If you leave it to any crackpot who chooses to call himself a Christian, then the word means nothing.

[Gob]

The different Christian sects have disagreements on the margins (e.g., infant baptism, the "Sacraments"), but the basic theology is not much open to question.

Really? Just "on the margins"? You 're telling me that there is no "christian" sect which believes that other Christians will not get into heaven as they believe and do the wrong things"?

That's a fucking big bit of "margin."