What Value Education?

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
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Guinevere
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by Guinevere »

Sean wrote:The only workers who don't get paid sick/personal/vacation leave here are casual workers... who get paid 20% more than contracted/permanent employees.
I'm sure we've talked about this before, but here very few people work based on a contract -- we are mostly "at will" employees. Federal law supplies some minimum standards in respect to wages and working conditions (sometimes supplemented by State or local law), and we have other constititional and statutory protections, but for the great majority a "job" only guaranteees you certain pay for certain work and that's all.

Exceptions are unionized employees which in the public sector and state and local employees -- teachers, public service (fire/police), and many other governmental types. Private sector unions are in found mostly in manufacturing, some service employees (healthcare and property service, and oddly grocery stores), the trades (plumbing, electrical, masons, construction), and transportation (teamsters, etc).
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

dgs49
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by dgs49 »

Footnotes on unionized employees: Construction workers generally don't get paid time off (vacation or sick). The theory is that their base hourly rates are generous enough to pay for the periods when weather or short-term illness prevents them from working, but construction projects can't be disrupted by, for example, electricians going on vacation.

As a unionized cab driver in 1971 and 1972, I was appalled at the lack of benefits for us. We were basically independent contractors (no fixed hourly rate - we made 35% of the fairbox take, plus tips) whose only union interaction was paying exorbitant dues to Teamsters Local 249. The move to leasing the cabs as independent contractors was a much better deal than working as a union driver.

rubato
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by rubato »

John Keegan from "One Englishman's America" on education:

p47
"Education ought to be wasteful, as American education is. It ought to offer chances to the greatest possible number, and ought to offer them in manifold variety and over and over again. No social scientist ever born has been able to predict who will benefit from education or when. ... "


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BoSoxGal
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by BoSoxGal »

I considered qualifying to teach in the public schools while at university; after taking just two of the required College of Education course, I balked at spending another cent on what were the most ridiculous waste of time of my entire educational experience. I've realized in restrospect that the investment in dollars would have been repaid a hundred-fold by the perks of teaching in public education. But on the other hand, given the opinion I have of most folks engaged in teaching - and more importantly in the administration of public schools - I doubt very much I would have been happy in that profession, apart from the actual interaction with students.

For the record, I have three years' teaching experience - teaching first and second year college students. College Composition and literature courses. I was beloved by my students and achieved consistently excellent evaluations from them - not by handing out easy As, either, but by inspiring them to learn. Teaching is a gift and I have it, but the public schools wouldn't want me because I haven't got the right 'credentials'.

I don't care to hear the complaints about the long hours of teachers; I work the same (longer, I'm certain) hours as a public servant 12/mo./yr. with only 3 weeks paid vacation.

Teachers get paid extra to coach, and most are provided plenty of time to prep for class, and grade assignments, within a traditional 8 hour work day. After the first few years of teaching, most of them are just regurgitating the same stuff year after year after year, and getting paid more and more and more to do it. I had a handful of teachers in public school who inspired me; the rest ranged from apathetic to downright pathologically harmful to children.

My current BF's ex-wife is a 2nd grade teacher highly overpaid given that she can barely spell. Yet she earned a Master's in Education. I kid you not. I encountered MANY just like her in the classes I took in the College of Ed, which is why I left and why I think they should all be dismantled.
Last edited by BoSoxGal on Sat May 28, 2011 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Just read int he newspaper today that here on Long Island we spend an average of almost $24,000 per student per year. NY state average is over $18,000 per student , highest in th nation.

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dales
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by dales »

Much of that $24K goes toward "overhead".

:ok

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by rubato »

oldr_n_wsr wrote:Just read int he newspaper today that here on Long Island we spend an average of almost $24,000 per student per year. NY state average is over $18,000 per student , highest in th nation.
That number is implausibly high for the NY state average.

LI is a small sub-group and it is harder to say what is plausible, but the best private K-12 schools charge about $18,000/yr so I have rather serious doubts.

yrs,
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by rubato »

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/backgrounde ... nding.html

This is dated but in '93-94 NY spent $7642 per student per year. It seems likely that it more than doubled since then.

yrs,
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by rubato »

According to this: http://empirezone.blogs.nytimes.com/200 ... in-the-us/

NY state spent $14,119/student in 2005.

yrs,
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

That number is implausibly high for the NY state average.

LI is a small sub-group and it is harder to say what is plausible, but the best private K-12 schools charge about $18,000/yr so I have rather serious doubts.
Doubt all you want but you should try getting more up to date data.
As a taxpayer, where over 60% of my property taxes go to the school district I keep a very watchful eye on this.
New York state spent more money per student in its public schools than any other state in the nation in 2009, according to a Census Bureau report released Wednesday.

New York averaged $18,126 in per-pupil spending, according to the census data, far higher than the national average of $10,499 per student. A Newsday analysis of census data also showed the spending average among Long Island's 124 school districts was even higher -- $23,972.
LINK
Last edited by oldr_n_wsr on Fri May 27, 2011 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sean
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by Sean »

Guinevere wrote:
Sean wrote:The only workers who don't get paid sick/personal/vacation leave here are casual workers... who get paid 20% more than contracted/permanent employees.
I'm sure we've talked about this before, but here very few people work based on a contract -- we are mostly "at will" employees. Federal law supplies some minimum standards in respect to wages and working conditions (sometimes supplemented by State or local law), and we have other constititional and statutory protections, but for the great majority a "job" only guaranteees you certain pay for certain work and that's all.

Exceptions are unionized employees which in the public sector and state and local employees -- teachers, public service (fire/police), and many other governmental types. Private sector unions are in found mostly in manufacturing, some service employees (healthcare and property service, and oddly grocery stores), the trades (plumbing, electrical, masons, construction), and transportation (teamsters, etc).
Fair enough Guin, for clarity I should have said "casual workers... who get paid 20% more than salaried employees."
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

And here are the top 5 states in spending
The top five states, or state equivalent, with the highest per-pupil spending in public school systems in 2009.

1. NEW YORK: $18,126

2. WASHINGTON, D.C.: $16,408

3. NEW JERSEY: $16,271

4. ALASKA: $15,552

5. VERMONT: $15,175
And the lowest 5 states
The five states with lowest per-pupil spending

1. UTAH: $6,356

2. IDAHO: $7,092

3. ARIZONA: $7,813

4. OKLAHOMA: $7,885

5. TENNESSEE: $7,897

dgs49
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by dgs49 »

Thanks for posting that data O&W.

The questions remain: How do we get the best bang for the education buck? Are we spending our education money foolishly?

More important, are there obvious things that could be done to improve the quality of education with the reduced funding that is now available? And I think the answer is Yes, indeed. But there is too much inertia preventing change, and the teachers' unions (like most unions) primarily exist to protect, defend, and promote the interests of, the worst performers in the education system.

BTW, I did not steal bigskygal's identity and post the thoughts expressed above. But they did give me goose-bumps.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by BoSoxGal »

dgs49 wrote:BTW, I did not steal bigskygal's identity and post the thoughts expressed above. But they did give me goose-bumps.
:lol:

I don't usually agree with you, and let me clarify to say that I have some dear friends who are teachers and are damned good ones, earning their salary - though, I would suggest that they could certainly teach full-time for the same salary, and I do believe it's high time this country extended the academic year.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Joe Guy
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by Joe Guy »

I agree with PeeftHaidamit.

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The Hen
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by The Hen »

I agreed with him/her so much I carried out his/her request and deleted it.

The moral? Never ask for something you don't actually want. You might get it.

(In case you are wondering, the spammer left a linked post saying "Hello. Delete".)
Bah!

Image

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Long Run
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by Long Run »

The research I have seen backs up Bigsky's anecdotal view: there is no correlation between an education degree (including a masters) and the quality of teaching. It is simply a requirement teachers need in order to get their ticket to teach. Some are good, some are mediocre and some stink. They all get paid the same. Some take hard to fill slots (advanced math and science), others compete for subjects that can be tough but for which there aren't many other jobs paying better (e.g., humanities) and some are in subjects that any half-way smart person could effectively teach. They all get paid the same.

With respect to the data of how much an education costs, you have to be careful to make sure they are making apt comparisons. The best way is to look at the total expenditures of a school district from all sources and divide by the average student count. However, sometimes they exclude federal dollars, or special ed dollars, or construction bond funds, etc. In our area, I've seen anywhere from $12,000 to $7,000 per student depending on what funds they are talking about.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Good point Long Run. I tried to find what was included in the cost per student but only found
this
This chart shows U.S. Census and New York State Department of Education figures for enrollment and per-pupil spending, by district, for Long Island's 124 public school districts. The figures are from the 2008-09 school year, the most recent available.

Census officials said differences between the two sets of figures could result, in part, from enrollment variations over the course of the school year. The Census enrollment figures were taken in October 2008; the Education Department figures were average daily enrollments. In addition, the Census figures exclude certain education costs, such as payments public school districts made to charter schools to cover the costs of attendance by district students, a bureau official said.

The average per pupil spending for Long Island is $23,972 according to Census data and $24,252 according to State Department of Education data. The average per pupil spending for Nassau County is $21,883 according to Census data and $23,172 according to State Department of Education data. The average per pupil spending for Suffolk County is $25,693 according to Census data and $25,183 according to State Department of Education data.
But I do think the census would report apples to apple.

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dales
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by dales »

Thiel Foundation fellowships have scary premise
James Temple, Chronicle Columnist

Sunday, May 29, 2011

On Wednesday, the Thiel Foundation named the first winners of its controversial "20 Under 20" fellowship program, a sort of anti-college scholarship in which young people are handed $100,000 to pursue entrepreneurial ideas rather than a university education.

It's a limited program designed to showcase a bigger - and troubling - idea: that higher education is highly overvalued.

The Thiel Foundation, the libertarian group formed by PayPal co-founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel, has been spreading the message for months, telling any outlet that will listen that college is a waste of a lot of people's time and money. It's a "higher education bubble" - and we all know how dangerous those are.

The 24 fellows (they couldn't settle on just 20), ranging from 17 to 20 years old, will be given $100,000 cash grants to purse scientific or technological ideas over the next two years, in areas like space exploration, clean energy, education and robotics.

The broad aim of "20 under 20" is to produce more technological innovation, and in turn faster and more sustainable economic growth, said James O'Neill, head of the Thiel Foundation. That's best achieved by unleashing the creative and unsullied mind power of young people, before lofty student loans and academic orthodoxy funnel them into safe and risk-adverse careers, he said.

"We're not saying that college or graduate school is wrong for everyone," he said. "But for entrepreneurship, for innovation in fields like computers or the Internet ... there's a combination of skills and drive that typically (isn't) very effectively taught in colleges or graduate school, where real world experience is probably the best teacher."

Limited exceptions
For a limited number of incredibly smart, self-motivated people in these fields, this is all difficult to argue with. Indeed, there's little worry that the whip smart eager beavers who won the fellowships are going to be ruined by forgoing or postponing college.

But the concern lies with the broader message, which O'Neill articulates this way: "It would be good for people to think very carefully about the costs and benefits of college, before they decide whether and when and where to go to college. We don't think that college is the best answer for every smart kid."

At 18, 19 and 20, we're all pretty susceptible to believing that we've got a good shot to be the next Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg, that whiz who dropped out of college and changed the world. But after exhausting that list, how many examples can you name off the top of your head?

For most people in most fields, a college education is the simple cost of admission into a career that will be more financially and psychologically rewarding.

But it's a fertile moment for the foundation's argument. In the wake of the Great Recession, with newspapers running stories about college graduates moving in with their parents or working as bartenders, it all carries a certain emotional resonance.

A handful of recent books and other observers have articulated arguments similar to Thiel's, including fellow hedge fund operator James Altucher (who has also questioned whether insider trading should be illegal). New York Magazine called the college backlash "one of the year's most fashionable ideas."

But it's important to recognize the political undercurrent in many of these arguments. Most of the voices arise from conservative or libertarian groups, like the Thiel Foundation. Some detect a strain of anti-intellectualism in the message, part and parcel of the long-running criticism that the educational establishment is too lefty, too focused on liberal arts, too dominated by pointy-headed professors who don't understand "real world experience."

Princeton University Professor Peter Brooks, who surveyed the work on this topic for the New York Review of Books, said the arguments echo that old American self-reliance ethic: We don't need any book learning or philosophizing, we just pull up our socks, open businesses and prosperity will come to all.

"These are dangerous waters," he said. "Of course, we need technological innovation and that may well be independent of the college curriculum, but I don't think that in any way suggests we ought to give up on college. Even techies benefit from reading great books and discussing philosophical concepts."

How process works
The seductive notion that groundbreaking ideas simply spring forth from bright minds contradicts the scientific thinking on how the process actually works, said Louise Yarnall, a senior research social scientist at SRI International's Center for Technology in Learning, whose background is in educational psychology.

"We talk about creativity or critical thinking or entrepreneurship as if it's some abstract skill that you can put in a little bottle," she said. "But the current work in this space actually sees it a little differently. The really great creativity happens when it's built upon deep knowledge" in a variety of fields.

The anti-college rhetoric also cuts against the gospel of Silicon Valley, which has preached for years that the American education system is failing to turn out adequate numbers of qualified engineers to fuel innovation and growth. On the whole, they want more, not fewer, people with advanced math and science skills - the type you typically pick up at college, not on the job.

O'Neill said that there is a free market theory behind the foundation's argument: They hope that, over time, if fewer people go to college, it will force a market correction, driving down the cost.

But Brooks and others believe that the very real problem of escalating college tuition has more to do with dwindling public funds than with any sort of tulip-like mania surrounding higher education. One obvious answer is spending more, not fewer, public dollars on higher learning. Of course, that solution would be anathema to college critics on the right.

Peter Thiel told the National Review that he estimated 70 to 80 percent of U.S. colleges "are not generating a positive return on investment." O'Neill didn't respond to requests to see the math on that.

It's certainly true that some colleges charge too much and over-promise the sort of jobs that graduates are likely to get directly out of school, and students and parents should consider their options carefully.

But if most people continue to stubbornly cling to the notion that a college education is worth the cost, it might be because, on average, it's true.

Clearly the economic downturn dealt a serious blow to the prospects of recent college graduates, but few think it's more than a cyclical issue.

In 2008, young adults with a bachelor's degree earned about $16,000 more per year than those with a high school diploma, based on median incomes, according to the U.S. Department of Education. That means that graduates of private institutions will recoup the average four-year cost of tuition, room and board in a little over seven years, while a public school graduate will be ahead of the game in about three.

Even so, this is a very narrow way of measuring the value of an education.

"The real return ought to be a life which is more thoughtful and reflective," Brooks said. "Perhaps a better life."

E-mail James Temple at jtemple@sfchronicle.com.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 1JJOTU.DTL

2011 Hearst Communications Inc.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Gob
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Re: What Value Education?

Post by Gob »

Interesting, I wonder how many will blow the money on sex, drugs and rock 'n roll? I would have :D
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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