More Christian Family Values

[Crackpot]

Not to mention that since Sin is unavoidable life would constantly be getting worse (you could make an argument that this is happening) and It would also would seem to introduce a scale of sin with one sin being worse than another which despite of what dgs says isn't the case.

crosspost

[Crackpot]

More spiteful than towards a God who damns us to hell before we are even born, unless, take it upon ourselves to be "saved"?

That's a new one on me. we are born into a sinful world which make sin inevitable. But I would not say we are born damned.

Though the vagueness on this point leads to another one of the cases described. Could you imagine a Bible that states that we are sinless until we are born? Abortion doctors would be doing "Gods work" and nutcases would be going around punching pregnant women!

[Scooter]

Not to mention that since Sin is unavoidable life would constantly be getting worse

I don't see it having to work as no sin=life gets better, sin=life gets worse. Rather, perhaps it works as sin less often than not=life gets better, sin more often than not=life gets worse, with how much better or how much worse depending on how far the scales have tipped.

It would also would seem to introduce a scale of sin with one sin being worse than another

(a) I don't see that it necessarily needs be so. It could be based strictly on quantity of sinning, without regard to quality.

(b) I don't see what would be wrong with it if it were. Surely it is worse to have murdered someone than to have cheated on an algebra test.

[Crackpot]

Karm is generally a a non-starter as afar as Christianity is concerned since how much or how little you sin has nothing to so with if you're saved.

As far as putting a scale on sin it is rather moot because we are not the ones by which it is judged. If you look at it from the frame of "All sin is disobedience to God" all sin is equal and the rest is window dressing. Adding our perspective to the crime could be seen as an attempt to put our opinion equal or possibly above that of God.

[Big RR]

some fundamentalists rely on these and other texts to refer to hell as a (p)lace of eternal torment (seeing the verses that contradict this as the allegorical or context dependent ones)

To be fair LJ, I think the verses you quote are strong on hell but not so strong on the "eternity" aspect of punishment. "Everlasting destruction" for example could be understood as some form of annihilation.

Be that as it may, Big RR can you cite some of the 'verses that contradict' the eternal torment understanding?

Meade

PS must say that 'lace of eternal torment' doesn't look so bad. I suppose though it would be one of those 'don't touch' places, eh Gob

Meade--you pointed it out yourself noting, e.g., the verse from Thessalonians verse jim cited might be interpreted as some form of annihilation rather than eternal punishment or torment.
edited to add: by the way, the lace of eternal torment might well be pleasant even if you can't touch, but the typos of torment are not.

Crackpot--

The penalty is Just. Like it or not since the penalty is known beforehand it is just. wether it is "deserved or not is moot since it is the penalty prescribed./quote]

I don't see that; just because one knows up front that the punishment for a minor parking offense is the loss of a limb does not make it "just"; certainly it is anticipated as a penalty but it is not "just" merely because of that notice. Justice is a far more complex concept.

[Econoline]

“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”

― Anne Lamott

[Crackpot]

I don't see that; just because one knows up front that the punishment for a minor parking offense is the loss of a limb does not make it "just"; certainly it is anticipated as a penalty but it is not "just" merely because of that notice. Justice is a far more complex concept.

So you're comparing thumbing your nose at what created you to a parking violation? Justice indeed is far more complex.

[Gob]

“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”

― Anne Lamott

I like it!

[MajGenl.Meade]

or

you can safely assume that God created you in his image when it turns out that you love the same people as God does (which is all of them)

Yeah that's logical

[dales]

Dear God-

There are times I fall so short of that.

[Big RR]

Crackpot--at least we're in agreement that justice is more complex.

[Gob]

[MajGenl.Meade]

Of course.... St Andrew SUC

[Andrew D]

But I would not say we are born damned.

The Bible, however, tells us that God created many of us precisely to condemn us to eternal torment.

Because he loves us.

[dales]

Yes He does.

That is why he provided propitiation for ALL SIN on the cross.

Some will accept God's gift.................................................................others will reject it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

But I would not say we are born damned.

The Bible, however, tells us that God created many of us precisely to condemn us to eternal torment. Because he loves us.

I'm sorry - where does it say something you interpret to mean that?

Also, does God "create" us? He created all things and on the 7th "day" he rested from creation i.e. he stopped. If he is not currently creating, the 7th "day" is still happening. Which explains why the 6 other "days" of Genesis are not 24 hour days but indefinite periods of time. When he resumes creating, it will be to replace earth and heaven with the new and improved models - buy two get New Jerusalem free.

Meade

[Gob]

A gay couple are thought to have become the first in the UK to hold a civil partnership ceremony in a church building.



Kieran Bohan and Warren Hartley exchanged vows at the Ullet Road Unitarian Church, in Liverpool, last month and are currently enjoying their honeymoon.

The couple, who described the event as a 'milestone for equality', only received council approval that the church could register civil partnerships a week before their big day.

Plans to allow religious buildings to host civil ceremonies were announced last February but the legislation was only implemented in December after public consultation.

Kieran, 41, who runs a youth group, said: 'The pace of change is extraordinarily remarkable, but there is still work to be done.

[Andrew D]

But I would not say we are born damned.

The Bible, however, tells us that God created many of us precisely to condemn us to eternal torment. Because he loves us.

I'm sorry - where does it say something you interpret to mean that?

Oh, please. Must we go through this again? Romans 9 etc. And etc. and etc.

Also, does God "create" us? He created all things and on the 7th "day" he rested from creation i.e. he stopped. If he is not currently creating, the 7th "day" is still happening. Which explains why the 6 other "days" of Genesis are not 24 hour days but indefinite periods of time. When he resumes creating, it will be to replace earth and heaven with the new and improved models - buy two get New Jerusalem free.

Meade

So God did not create us?

That's a handy escape from the otherwise inescapable problem that God created many of us for the purpose of condemning us to eternal damnation. How convenient.

But if God did not create us, then why do I have any responsibilities to God? Why should what God says matter any more than do the sayings of Khalil Gibran?

Why is any response to God any better than "go fuck yourself"?

How is God any better than any other bully who says "You will do what I say or else, because I am stronger than you"?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oh, please. Must we go through this again? Romans 9 etc. And etc. and etc.

I don't know - must we? You brought it up. You're onto one of the various explanations of "predestined" and you obviously choose the one that you prefer to regard as correct. As do we all.

So God did not create us? That's a handy escape from the otherwise inescapable problem that God created many of us for the purpose of condemning us to eternal damnation. How convenient. But if God did not create us, then why do I have any responsibilities to God?

God created Adam and Eve (if you like, "the first humans") in an act of special creation. They created their descendants in the usual way, according to the nature created by God. Check Genesis; Adam made in God's likeness; Seth made in Adam's likeness.

Do I believe that God sat around wondering which bits to pack into Andrew D? No I do not.

You don't have any responsibilities toward God. Choose what you like. You will get it

Meade

[rubato]

Either god knowingly created homosexuals or there was no special creation.

yrs,
rubato