Hawking his theory

[Sean]

But self-awareness does not equate to spirituality.

Love of other species (pets), How is that evolutionarily advantageous?
Love of music and art, What purpose does that serve?

A: It nurtures the spirit.

I don't think that everything we experience or do in our lives can be pigeon-holed into either 'evolutionary advantageous' or 'spiritual'. To me that is a very simplistic (not to mention blinkered) way to view the world.

In the interests of open mindedness you should really add an 'IMO' to your answer. A person with a greater grasp of biology than me would probably tell you about music, art, etc triggering receptors in the brain, releasing endorphins or some such.

BTW it's worth adding that the body's cells are not all replaced simultaneously. People don't take delivery of a shiny new body every seven years. Each new cell we produce contains our own genetic code.

Meaning: You are your body.

[loCAtek]

Speak for yourself LOL

That was my point earlier; genetics doesn't explain non-bio love.

[Big RR]

Each new cell we produce contains our own genetic code.

Meaning: You are your body.

Well, your genetic code contains the information to contsruct your proteins again, along with a lot of other crap called junk DNA which, it appears, controls expression of the "important code". The code itself is nothing unless and until it is expressed, and so many events are required to express it properly (or in the same way each time) that sceintists still don't fully understand it. Yes, we can artificially create a fertilized ovum and implant it to allow it to develop into a human, but we are still far away from cloning a limb that was lost in an accident so it could be reattached, let alone completely cloning a human being (even if it were legal). And even if we could clone an individual, we are also the sum of our experiences, which could never be duplicated because of the mutlitude of variables (its entirely possibile that something you saw as pleasurable once would be intolerable again due to various feelings and other stimuli). Thus we are unique individuls separate from our bodies.

Which leaves us with the question of our self awareness and how it affects us. Yes, we may be able to demonstrate someday how these feelings are chemically generated, but I doubt we would ever be able to recreate the feelings. Our systems are far to complex to approach this way, and there is a significant amount of chance thrown in as well. Is this evidence of the existence of a god? IMHO, not necessarily; but if we are somehow wired to seek out a god, maybe it is because that god exists.

[thestoat]

but if we are somehow wired to seek out a god, maybe it is because that god exists.

... or maybe it has been wired into us to seek out a good through our forebears.

I personally believe that if we were able to "scan" a human and then recreate that human exactly, including every electron, quark-spin, etc and every physical manifestation of that human then we would have an identical human with exactly the same memories, loves, hates, beliefs. I.e. The "soul" (for want of a better word) is nothing more than the way the brain is wired. This would explain why people can have brain surgery and then behave different.

And if this was not the case then it would imply to me that teleportation is impossible - and that thought would be terrible ...

[Big RR]

And if this was not the case then it would imply to me that teleportation is impossible - and that thought would be terrible ...

Sadly, IMHO the quantum uncertainty of Heisenberg, I would think, makes this impossible. Not to mention getting a fly in the chamber by mistake.

[thestoat]

Surely a million Trekkies can't be wrong?

[loCAtek]

Well, the problem with teleportation(to begin the thread hijack) is the premise that matter can, or should be, transported as matter. When in fact, it's easier to record matter's data; destroy it in one location; transmit the data; then reconstruct the matter from that data at another location.

The problem is- of course, recording the initial matter's data to a such degree, that the 'copy' is indistinguishable from the original. Some speculate that following DNA codes would resolve this problem, others like Dr. Lenard McCoy have their doubts.

[tyro]

it's easier to record matter's data; destroy it in one location; transmit the data; then reconstruct the matter from that data at another location.

If teleportation could work according to this description, how sure could we be that our sense of self does not remain with the original and dies with its destruction?

[loCAtek]

Exactly. You could reconstruct a body perhaps, but have you copied the personality and/or soul? The brain isn't hardwired; that is- the information, memories, intellect and mind are electronically stored by neurons. Shut off the power by destroying the body, without storing all that electronic data first and you will lose it. The transporting would result in a blank copy.

[loCAtek]

Next thought: if somehow all that data in an average human brain could be stored; and you could clone another body for that data to be transferred to, then science could conqueror death itself by just giving you a new body whenever the old one was too damaged .

If any atheists were wondering what it might take for me to choose their philosophy, it might if science could bring anyone back from the dead. Not critical condition near death, but stone cold dead-dead. That to me would be scientific proof that we are purely organic and do not possess souls, but that's one thing science hasn't captured is the spirit.

[Big RR]

Lo--many people have been brought back minutes (sometimes many minutes, perhaps even hours under the right conditions) after their heartbeat and respiration ceased; there are many reports of this is popular, scientific, and medical literature.

edited to add: see, e.g., the following WIKI article

[Andrew D]

If you're not your body, what are you?

A continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a dissipative structure.

[tyro]

Shut off the power by destroying the body, without storing all that electronic data first and you will lose it.

I fear you missed my point.

You describe teleportation as the creation of ones entity in a different place while destroying the original.

Imagine if something went wrong and the original is not destroyed. Where is the sense of “me” for this person?

Certainly the original would balk if the man in charge of the teleportation were to try and correct the mistake with a phaser set on vapourize.

[thestoat]

Imagine if something went wrong and the original is not destroyed

The assumption in the hypothetical teleportation argument is that it works.

Shut off the power by destroying the body, without storing all that electronic data first and you will lose it

Of course.

If any atheists were wondering what it might take for me to choose their philosophy, it might if science could bring anyone back from the dead. Not critical condition near death, but stone cold dead-dead. That to me would be scientific proof that we are purely organic and do not possess souls, but that's one thing science hasn't captured is the spirit.

lo - I fear we are a long way from that - but that doesn't make it impossible. I believe it is certainly possible for that to happen (though probably not desirable in our current technological state) - just that we'd need alien technology far in advance of ours. Science has performed so many things that would have been considered miracles not that long ago (and thus earned the scientist a good burning at the hands of the church).

But I would love to see your conversion (Incidentally, I wonder if aliens worship the same god as some people on this planet - but maybe that is fodder for another thread).

[loCAtek]

Lo--many people have been brought back minutes (sometimes many minutes, perhaps even hours under the right conditions) after their heartbeat and respiration ceased; there are many reports of this is popular, scientific, and medical literature.

edited to add: see, e.g., the following WIKI article

I'm sorry the article didn't link.


I believe, but can't be sure my comment applies till I see the link, that these are cases of 'suspended animation' [of life] and not actually death.

[loCAtek]

Imagine if something went wrong and the original is not destroyed. Where is the sense of “me” for this person?

I've read some great SF stories in IASFM on this premise.

[loCAtek]

Science has performed so many things that would have been considered miracles not that long ago (and thus earned the scientist a good burning at the hands of the church).

But I would love to see your conversion (Incidentally, I wonder if aliens worship the same god as some people on this planet - but maybe that is fodder for another thread).

Like fire? LOL

I've nothing against knowledge; I'm a big SF fan myself.

FWIW I think it would all be the same God, just expressed differently to those alien cultures, as it is expressed differently to all the various Terran cultures.

[Big RR]

Lo--many people have been brought back minutes (sometimes many minutes, perhaps even hours under the right conditions) after their heartbeat and respiration ceased; there are many reports of this is popular, scientific, and medical literature.

edited to add: see, e.g., the following WIKI article

I'm sorry the article didn't link.


I believe, but can't be sure my comment applies till I see the link, that these are cases of 'suspended animation' [of life] and not actually death.

Lo--if I get a chance i'll try and find the link again; but if you google clinical death and revival you'll find many articles of the same type.

But your second point is exactly the problem; death cannot be accurately defined. It would be very easy to say, well, if the person was revived, than 9s0he could not have been dead, but was in suspeneded animation, or some other non dead state. It's a no win propostion.

[loCAtek]

Shut off the power by destroying the body, without storing all that electronic data first and you will lose it.

I fear you missed my point.

You describe teleportation as the creation of ones entity in a different place while destroying the original.

Imagine if something went wrong and the original is not destroyed. Where is the sense of “me” for this person?

Certainly the original would balk if the man in charge of the teleportation were to try and correct the mistake with a phaser set on vapourize.

Gernerally though, the SF community follows the guideline that in order to copy someone exactly, you have to take them apart down to their smallest quarks and bits, in order to quantify the information. Just taking a DNA sample will give the information to create a clone of the body, not the mind. Then you just have two different persons with the same genetic code, such like twins.

...but how do you scan a mind? Different synapses are firing at different rates; depending on different stimuli, or lack of it. It's fluid and changing, constantly and instantaneously due to thought, memory and instinct, etc. how do you capture that?

[loCAtek]

Lo--many people have been brought back minutes (sometimes many minutes, perhaps even hours under the right conditions) after their heartbeat and respiration ceased; there are many reports of this is popular, scientific, and medical literature.

edited to add: see, e.g., the following WIKI article

I'm sorry the article didn't link.


I believe, but can't be sure my comment applies till I see the link, that these are cases of 'suspended animation' [of life] and not actually death.

Lo--if I get a chance i'll try and find the link again; but if you google clinical death and revival you'll find many articles of the same type.

But your second point is exactly the problem; death cannot be accurately defined. It would be very easy to say, well, if the person was revived, than 9s0he could not have been dead, but was in suspeneded animation, or some other non dead state. It's a no win propostion.

Found the article, but that was what I was trying to stipulate: that under controlled clinical conditions death can be skirted by smaller and smaller margins of a few seconds or minutes. By calling it 'stone cold dead', I meant most if not all observers would agree that ALL life functions had ceased and the person was deceased.
Medical science is able to find ways of 're-animating' tissue; such as using electrical current to make a frog's legs twitch, but it hasn't been able to bring any being fully dead back to independently functioning life.


...besides, are you trying to make an atheist of me? LOL