The Doctor Speaks...

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
Personal philosophy welcomed.
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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Stoat, I've met a few sex offenders, in part because of my work as a licensed foster parent of the state of California. Perhaps as Sean already knows, I'm related to a sex offender. Perhaps one of them was a pedophile, I can't be certain of that.

What I'm getting at is: a sex offender isn't necessarily a pedophile. As well as, there are legal degrees to the offenses, meaning that are not all offenders are molesters (at least in the US).

So, someone who has to register as a sex offender is not automatically a pedophile by definition. The terms are often confused by the layman.
Also, according to the professionals, no one profession, ethnicity, sexual orientation nor social status, etc. is considered more prone to pedophilia than any other. Their profiles seem entirely random.
Which is why this painting the church as pedophile-ridden doesn't seem accurate, but a misleading skewing of the facts.


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thestoat
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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loCAtek wrote:What I'm getting at is: a sex offender isn't necessarily a pedophile
Hmmm, this is stating the obvious lo - nobody is saying different. What I said was "But he has been suspended from his post while they look in to his past after allegations have been made about him and little boys." Now THAT implies pedophilia. But as far as I am concerned, until he has been proven guilty I'd always keep my mind open.
loCAtek wrote:Which is why this painting the church as pedophile-ridden doesn't seem accurate, but a misleading skewing of the facts.
The big difference seems to me to be this:

If a lawyer, teacher, accountant, any other profession was shown to be a pedophile they'd be ostracised and out of their job. The Vatican covers many of these cases up. This has been discussed in other threads.
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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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thestoat wrote:Now THAT implies pedophilia.
Well, I'm afraid I haven't heard the allegations of that specific case; I was just speaking in general. So, while you may know of an incidence of legitimate pedophilia, that does not make it indicative of the overall profile. The possible pedophile I knew was employed as a construction worker; but I don't categorize construction workers as pedophiles, as a result of that. As stated the profile is generally random.

thestoat wrote: If a lawyer, teacher, accountant, any other profession was shown to be a pedophile they'd be ostracised and out of their job. The Vatican covers many of these cases up. This has been discussed in other threads.
Well, in this day and age yes, but we're talking about the past (as in my grandfather's case) where these things were routinely denied, and/or the victim blamed, whatever profession/rank the perpetrator held.
The major church scandals mentioned, emerged over thirty years ago during the '60's and '70's, while today: your priest is being investigated, and not covered up, correct?

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thestoat
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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loCAtek wrote:So, while you may know of an incidence of legitimate pedophilia, that does not make it indicative of the overall profile
Lo - I have not stated that the single case I know of makes it indicative of the overall profile.
loCAtek wrote:The major church scandals mentioned, emerged over thirty years ago during the '60's and '70's, while today: your priest is being investigated, and not covered up, correct?
NOT CORRECT!
This priest is being investigated, but this only seems to happen sporadically. These cover ups do go on today. For you to assume that everything in the Church is just rosy smacks of a frightening complacency.


In August 2005 Pope Benedict was personally accused in a lawsuit of conspiring to cover up the molestation of three boys in Texas by Juan Carlos Patino-Arango in Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. He sought and obtained immunity from prosecution as head of state of the Holy See. (Wiki)

If you want some examples of cover ups, then how about ...
Kenya
In 2009 several people came forward with accusations of sexual molestation against an Italian priest working in the country. The Church gave assurances of an investigation, but this has not taken place.
In 2010 a young woman alleged that a Catholic priest had undertaken inappropriate sexual activity against her will, but the police & Church authorities had failed to follow up the allegations
Asia
In 2011, a priest accused of sexually abusing a 17-year old female minor is sheltered by his Bishop, despite calls for his surrender to civil authorities

Italy - how about this???!!!
Italian Government has a treaty with the Vatican that guarantees areas of immunity to Vatican officials, including bishops and priests

Malta
84 allegations had been made as of April 2010 and Lawrence Grech, one of many alleged victims complains that he was abused in an orphanage. Mr Grech complained in 2010 that the Church had been investigating cases for seven years without doing enough that is effective
Poland
In early 2007 allegations surfaced that former Bishop Stanislaw Wielgus (later very briefly Archbishop of Warsaw) was aware that several priests in his former diocese of Płock were sexually abusing minors
Britain
In the 1990s, abuse by a Father Eugene Kennan (baptismal name John Joseph), a priest of the Passionist Order, originally from Liverpool, came to light. The scandal was largely covered up by the superior of the Passionist Order, Father Nicholas Postlethwaite, who managed to keep it out of the English newspapers

These are just a few - many more on the page. Go read it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... by_country
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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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thestoat wrote: For you to assume that everything in the Church is just rosy ...

Now, that I didn't say. I did say I was a foster parent, meaning I've worked with and cared for kids who been victims, and sometimes perpetrators, of this kind of abuse. So, please don't assume I condone this behavior.

My point is that this goes on at all levels of human society, not only in the church. I understand cover-ups happen, since that is the way of human nature. My own foster child was shuffled around friends and neighbors, and 'hidden' while his mother was first being investigated. She wanted my Ex and I to be a part of that; I know how cover-ups happen. Her boyfriend she was trying to protect at the time was a lawyer, but I don't disparage the profession of lawyers, as a result.

The vast major of what the church contributes to individuals and society is beneficial to them.

It always interests me how it's always the Christian church that's targeted. Did you know there's a religion that was started by a pedophile?

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thestoat
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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loCAtek wrote:Now, that I didn't say.
Actually you did say it, using different words. When you said
loCAtek wrote:The major church scandals mentioned, emerged over thirty years ago during the '60's and '70's, while today: your priest is being investigated, and not covered up, correct?
This certainly implied to me that you believe the problems with pedophilia in the church has long since stopped being an issue. I maintain it is STILL an issue.
loCAtek wrote:My point is that this goes on at all levels of human society, not only in the church.
Sure. But as I repeat
thestoat wrote:The big difference seems to me to be this:

If a lawyer, teacher, accountant, any other profession was shown to be a pedophile they'd be ostracised and out of their job. The Vatican covers many of these cases up. This has been discussed in other threads.
I have now listed explicit examples of recent cover ups, including one where the pope himself tried to hide behind his immunity
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — Clergy sex abuse victims upset that no high-ranking Roman Catholic leaders have been prosecuted for sheltering guilty priests went to the International Criminal Court on Tuesday, seeking an investigation of the pope and top Vatican cardinals for possible crimes against humanity.

The Center for Constitutional Rights, a New York-based nonprofit legal group, requested the inquiry on behalf of the Survivors Network, arguing that the global church has maintained a "long-standing and pervasive system of sexual violence" despite promises to swiftly oust predators.

The Vatican said it had no immediate comment on the complaint.

The complaint names Pope Benedict XVI, partly in his former role as leader of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which in 2001 explicitly gained responsibility for overseeing abuse cases; Cardinal William Levada, who now leads that office; Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican secretary of state under Pope John Paul II; and Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who now holds that post.

Attorneys for the victims say rape, sexual violence and torture are considered a crime against humanity as described in the international treaty that spells out the court's mandate. The complaint also accuses Vatican officials of creating policies that perpetuated the damage, constituting an attack against a civilian population.

Barbara Blaine, president of the U.S.-based Survivors Network of those Abused by priests, said going to the court was a last resort.

"We have tried everything we could think of to get them to stop and they won't," she told The Associated Press. "If the pope wanted to, he could take dramatic action at any time that would help protect children today and in the future, and he refuses to take the action."

The odds against the court opening an investigation are enormous. The prosecutor has received nearly 9,000 independent proposals for inquiries since 2002, when the court was created as the world's only permanent war crimes tribunal, and has never opened a formal investigation based solely on such a request.

Instead, prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo has investigated crimes such as genocide, murder, rape and conscripting child soldiers in conflicts from Darfur to this year's violence in Libya. Such cases have been referred to the court by the countries where the atrocities were perpetrated or by the U.N. Security Council.

Also, the Holy See is not a member state of the court, meaning prosecutors have no automatic jurisdiction there, although the complaint covers alleged abuse in countries around the world, many of which do recognize the court's jurisdiction.

"Politically, people do not want to look at this," said Center for Constitutional Rights attorney Pam Spees before walking to the court with victims to hand prosecutors boxes full of documents.

But Spees conceded she was "not hopeful" the court would launch an investigation.

The prosecutor's office said in a statement the evidence would be studied. "We first have to analyze whether the alleged crimes fall under the Court's jurisdiction," it said.

Attorneys for the Survivors Network argued that no other national entity exists that will prosecute high-level Vatican officials who failed to protect children.

In the U.S., no Roman Catholic bishop has been criminally charged for keeping accused clergy in parish jobs without warning parents or police. Within the church, only the pope can discipline bishops. The few who have been publicly punished by the Vatican have been sanctioned for molesting children, not for negligence in supervising priests.

"When a church has been left to its own devices it does nothing. It wouldn't even have the reforms it has now if these cases hadn't begun to bubble up and erupt in the public outside the confines of what the church can control," said Spees.

The Survivors Network and victims are pursuing the case as the abuse scandal, once dismissed as an American problem by the Vatican, intensifies around the world. Thousands of people have come forward in Ireland, Germany and elsewhere with reports of abusive priests, bishops who covered up for them and Vatican officials who moved so slowly to respond that molesters often stayed on the job for decades.

Vatican officials and church leaders elsewhere have apologized repeatedly, clarified or toughened church policies on ousting abusers and, in the U.S. alone, paid out nearly $3 billion in settlements to victims and removed hundreds of priests. Bishops insist they fully grasp the devastation that molestation causes to victims and the limits that dioceses must impose on abusive clergy.

However, the scandal is far from resolved.

The Vatican is fighting on multiple legal fronts in the U.S. against lawsuits alleging the Holy See is liable for abusive priests. Just last month, the Vatican was forced to turn over internal personnel files of an abusive priest to lawyers representing a victim in Oregon.

Those prosecutions also could form an impediment to the ICC taking the case. The tribunal is a court of last resort, meaning it will only take cases where legal authorities elsewhere are unwilling or unable to prosecute.

Also, the court doesn't investigate crimes that occurred before its 2002 creation. A study commissioned by the U.S. bishops from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York found abuse claims had peaked in the 1970s, then began declining sharply in 1985, as the bishops and society general gained awareness of the problem.

But Blaine said the abuse continues and she wants church leaders to face justice.

"These priests and church officials live by some other law," she said. "Somehow they're not held accountable like every other citizen of a nation. That would be horrific in and of itself but what must end is shattering the innocence of even one more child."

____

Center for Constitutional Rights: http://ccrjustice.org/

____

Corder reported from The Hague. Zoll reported from New York. Associated Press writer Nicole Winfield contributed to this report from Rome.
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Independent senator Nick Xenophon has vowed to defy the Catholic Church and name and shame a priest accused of raping the Archbishop of the Traditional Anglican Communion, John Hepworth, about 50 years ago.

Senator Xenophon said in the senate last night that he would identify the priest unless he was stood down by noon today.

The priest is accused of raping Hepworth, 67, who was allegedly the victim of sexual abuse by three priests when he was aged between 15 and 27 and studying to become a priest.

Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/national/chur ... z1XsyFyPjR
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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I think the problem here seems to be lo has made up her mind that abuse does not go on in today's church (and if it ever does it is immediately stamped out), and will not change it. Any facts and evidence showing that abuse still goes on is simply ignored. There's none so deaf as those who will not listen.
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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Loca speaks for herself here, (yet again, if you're listening and not just reflexively judging);

I do not condone pedophilia, nor child abuse, nor coverups of it.

Also, I do not exaggerate other's human nature in order to demonize their behavior, in order to support my own claims. I let the facts speak for themselves. There's no need to project . Projection is emotional, and my point is to focus on the intellectual.



Factually, the church is no more pedophiliac than any other human organization.

I await the documented data to refute this; and will only be disappointed by further deliberate obfuscation.

Good day.

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thestoat
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Er, lo, you are the one obfuscating things again ... Check above where you states such things as "I don't condone pedophilia" when no one is suggesting you do. And previously you have spoken about the myth of church pedophilia and simply ignored all attempts to get you to stand by or refute the remark.

Lets be clear. You SEEM to be saying that pedophilia in the church is a thing of the past and does not go on or is not covered up these days. Is this what you believe? Because you have ignored my and other posts to the contrary, which to my mind is the very obfuscation you accuse others of.
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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It's called "projection"....stoat. :mrgreen:

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Um, it's less of the sitch, than during the past. Otherwise, it's about the same as any other organization. Meaning it equates the human nature of any other group.

Religion ain't a part o' that.

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thestoat
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Still evading the basic question. Why not just say you won't answer it ... Or don't understand it.
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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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thestoat wrote:
Lets be clear. You SEEM to be saying that pedophilia in the church is a thing of the past and does not go on or is not covered up these days. Is this what you believe? Because you have ignored my and other posts to the contrary, which to my mind is the very obfuscation you accuse others of.
ThX for asking 8-) no, that's not what I believe, that's an oversimplification.

I believe the rate of sex offenses, not necessarily pedophilia (see, my latest post here) is the same at any social level. The church is just getting more high profile negative press, regardless that the majority of the clergy did not and do not engage in this behavior; and that the highest levels of the Church are trying to address the problem;
CNN
"Moved and deeply shaken by the sufferings of the victims, the Holy Father expressed his deep compassion and regret over all that was done to them and their families," the statement added. "He assured the people present that those in positions of responsibility in the church are seriously concerned to deal with all crimes of abuse and are committed to effective measures for the protection of children."

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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

Post by rubato »

"The highest levels of the church" have been caught many times trying to block investigations, protect abusers, and allow them to continue their abuse.

There is no evidence that they have even begun to admit the truth let alone deal with the problem.

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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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None? As in 0%?
CNN
"Moved and deeply shaken by the sufferings of the victims, the Holy Father expressed his deep compassion and regret over all that was done to them and their families," the statement added. "He assured the people present that those in positions of responsibility in the church are seriously concerned to deal with all crimes of abuse and are committed to effective measures for the protection of children."

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thestoat
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Lo, I know you have quoted that the pope "expressed his deep compassion and regret" - but remember, this is the same pope who "was personally accused in a lawsuit of conspiring to cover up the molestation of three boys in Texas by Juan Carlos Patino-Arango in Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. He sought and obtained immunity from prosecution as head of state of the Holy See" - so, bit of a two faced, double standards git, really.
loCAtek wrote:
thestoat wrote:
Lets be clear. You SEEM to be saying that pedophilia in the church is a thing of the past and does not go on or is not covered up these days. Is this what you believe? Because you have ignored my and other posts to the contrary, which to my mind is the very obfuscation you accuse others of.
ThX for asking 8-) no, that's not what I believe, that's an oversimplification.
Excellent, we are getting somewhere. So, a true statement is

Lo acknowledges that pedophilia in the church is still happening and being covered up to this day

(If this is not correct then please correct the statement - but not with one of a completely different meaning. Note - I am not saying that you condone sex abuse so you don't need to rehash that statement here).

Now, further,
loCAtek wrote:

I believe the rate of sex offenses, not necessarily pedophilia (see, my latest post here) is the same at any social level.
Can you provide any evidence to back that up?
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

Post by rubato »

loCAtek wrote:

I believe the rate of sex offenses, not necessarily pedophilia (see, my latest post here) is the same at any social level.

Outside the RC church they don't have an international institution helping them commit crimes and get away with it. Like shipping Pedophiles from Ireland to the US (without warning) so they could continue to abuse.


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loCAtek
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Re: The Doctor Speaks...

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Once again a sex offender is not necessarily a pedophile.

A pedophile can remain celibate his/her whole life.

...as can a heterosexual.

...as can a homosexual.


A sex offender, no matter what their sexual orientation, acts out aggressively against a non-consensual victim because sex crimes are not about sex, they are about power.

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