Westboro Atheists

[Crackpot]

Hey people love the "assholes defence" esepecially when you consider that it can only correctly applied by you or people that you sympathize with.

[Sue U]

I'm not fluent in legalese but the I woud think there would be more of a requrement than "appearance" If "appearance" was all that was needed I doubt there would be any allowance for any type of governmantal observances of any remotely religious activities like Holiday Trees, Easter Egg hunts etc. even though they contain no real religious signifigance (to Christan theology at least)

That was precisely Justice O'Connor's point in the Allegheny County case. Government is permitted to acknowledge and even celebrate Christmas as a cultural phenomenon but may not suggest, either directly or indirectly, that people praise God for the birth of Jesus or be seen to endorse any Christian doctrine. Decorations such as Christmas trees, candy canes, snowflakes, and even Santa Claus are held to be "secular" expressions of the holiday not affiliated with religious belief, and therefore generally permissible for government use. Even religious symbols can be used as part of a broader display that, for example, celebrates cultural diversity, but whether the use of such symbols is constitutionally permissible is a highly fact-sensitive question based on the overall message that is conveyed by the display.

ETA:

I doubt you would find many Jews, Muslims, or other non-observers of Christmas who think that Christmas trees and Santa Claus are genuinely secular expressions of anything, or that Christmas is any kind of secular holiday at all, but there ya go. Apparently, there is some significant portion of the Christmas-observing world that does make this distinction, and which is/was represented on the Supreme Court.

[Sue U]

I'm going to disagree, because nearly all faiths and cultures celebrate the coming of the new year, while it may be held at different dates*; for example most Asian societies celebrate it on the first day of Spring. When Japan adopted the Western Calender, they also moved their New Year's festivals to Dec. 31. because the point is to welcome renewal, not necessarily to engage of any form of worship, per se.

New Year's Eve has become so secular to the point most folks aren't aware of the Feast of Circumcision; nor are celebrating it on Dec. 31, they are celebrating the coming year.


*Just a note: It's more accurate to say The Festival of Mithras is a New Year celebration, and not a a birthday.

You might disagree, but you'd be wrong. Throughout human history -- from China to India to Persia to Babylonia to Egypt to Rome -- New Year's celebrations have been explicitly religious festivals featuring honors and appeasements to gods and other supernatural creatures. The fact that New Year's Eve in the West may have become a more "secularized" event over the last century doesn't turn it into a secular holiday, since its whole reason for existence (like Mardi Gras or All Hallows Eve) is the religious festival the following day. In fact, in the Jewish tradition, from which Christianity is drawn, the holiday's "eve" is considered a kind of "half-holiday" itself, especially since the "day" runs from sundown to sundown, not midnight to midnight.

[Guinevere]

I doubt you would find many Jews, Muslims, or other non-observers of Christmas who think that Christmas trees and Santa Claus are genuinely secular expressions of anything, or that Christmas is any kind of secular holiday at all, but there ya go.

Various Jewish friends, boyfriends, and family members have made this point to me many times. They have also explained that Christmas is one of the most stressful times of year for them, they have often been treated with either contempt or condescension, and they really don't like the holiday at all -- and these are people who live in educated communities with strong and active jewish populations. I think they make a good point - how can a holiday that begins with "Christ" ever be secular? I don't think it is possible, no matter how much some people try and pretend it can be.

[Crackpot]

I think it has to do with the fact that everything apart from the name of the holiday is completly divorced from the religion. It would sort of be like after having a traditional passover supper of chesseburger and ribs you all got together and exchanged golden calfs. thoyugh you would still reserve a place at the table for Alfred Dreyfus.

[Sue U]

I think they make a good point - how can a holiday that begins with "Christ" ever be secular? I don't think it is possible, no matter how much some people try and pretend it can be.

Especially not with the constant exhortations to "keep Christ in Christmas."

everything apart from the name of the holiday is completly divorced from the religion.

Not from my perspective.

[Sean]

One further point...

A lot of atheists seem to enjoy expressing their contempt for religion by comparing religious accounts to "fairy tales"....

But some how, I have a hard time imagining these folks working themselves into a hissy fit over a display in a public square depicting a scene from Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs....

I wonder why that is...

There's a slight difference Jim. If people were being told that the story of Snow White was historically accurate and that if they didn't worship Snow White they would spent eternity in agony there might then be a hissy fit or two...

[loCAtek]

I think they make a good point - how can a holiday that begins with "Christ" ever be secular? I don't think it is possible, no matter how much some people try and pretend it can be.

Which is why some are trying to call it Xmas or Mithras-mas.

[Scooter]

The use of X as a symbol for Christ is a Christian usage, based on the fact that the letter X comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word Χριστός, which means Christ. The notion that the use of Xmas is a secular attempt to take the Christ out of Christmas is, therefore, a belief held by those who are ignorant of their own church's symbology.

[loCAtek]

Or someone who isn't Christian?

[dales]

eta:

the was meant for scooter

[Scooter]

The notion that anyone is using Xmas as an attempt to secularize Christmas is a bald assertion for which no evidence has been presented.

[Crackpot]

I think they make a good point - how can a holiday that begins with "Christ" ever be secular? I don't think it is possible, no matter how much some people try and pretend it can be.

Especially not with the constant exhortations to "keep Christ in Christmas."

well there is two arguments bases on whos making the claim. From the religious it's a exortation that the holiday should actually reflect the name. from the "war on christmas people" it's a cyinocal ploy for ratings. (nothing they are ever complaining about has anything to do with christian beliefs. "hey they're interfering with our Pagan Nordic tree worship!")

everything apart from the name of the holiday is completly divorced from the religion.

Not from my perspective.

Would you consider my descrition of a passover celebration as Jewish then?

[Sue U]

Would you consider my descrition of a passover celebration as Jewish then?

If that's what I saw the overwhelming majority of Jews doing year in and year out as part and parcel of their Passover celebration, then yes. (Actually, there are many parts of the "traditional" Passover celebration that are strictly cultural and not religious at all, from matzah ball soup to the games played to the songs sung at the table.) The fact that pagan or other "non-religious" customs have been grafted onto a Christian holiday -- or vice versa -- doesn't make them any less a part of the holiday; they are very much part and parcel of the Christmas holiday as celebrated by Christians, the whole purpose of which is to commemorate the miraculous birth of the human incarnation of their deity.

I certainly understand the distinction between the strictly religious aspects of a holiday and its other cultural practices. But this is very much a case of "Christmas is as Christmas does."

[Crackpot]

I thinkk you're confusing cultural activities vs. religious activities. out side of "the west" (and to lesser extent "the wests'" influence) these things are largely absent. (leaving out of course domestic Christian sects that ingore Xmas all together)

as you say if Xmas is as xmas does and xmas completely ignores it's "christan" origins wouldn't it make it non-christian?

[Sue U]

I am not confusing them, I know exactly what they are. And I'm not talking about "outside the West," I am speaking particularly about the United States. Aside from attending Mass or some other service, there is no other strictly "religious" practice associated with Christmas; yet it is foolish to claim that everything else is "cultural" and not part of the Christian holiday. Many Christians go door to door singing carols, many or most of which are in praise of God and Jesus. Is this practice "cultural" or "religious"? Many Christians decorate their "pagan" trees with angels to symbolize the Annunciation. Cultural or religious? What about the mass media and other entertainments whose seasonal programs heavily feature "Christmas miracles" and emphasize "God's love"? My point is that in practical terms, it makes no difference, especially to those who are not Christians or Christmas-observers.

To the extent this discussion involves state sponsorship of celebratons, in countries where the church is an organ of the state it matters not a whit whether some practices are "cultural" and others "religious" -- the government is free to promote its state religion however it chooses. Here, however, there are constitutional restrictions which supposedly make the distinction important. I am simply questioning whether there is any real meaning in those distinctions.

[Crackpot]

I think this also has to do with a generational difference. round here at lest we don't get what you describe anymore. buy the Mid 80's it was all gone. (btw angels aren't are no more christian than they are jewish that is to say they bear no remblance to our texts)

To the extent this discussion involves state sponsorship of celebratons, in countries where the church is an organ of the state it matters not a whit whether some practices are "cultural" and others "religious" -- the government is free to promote its state religion however it chooses. Here, however, there are constitutional restrictions which supposedly make the distinction important. I am simply questioning whether there is any real meaning in those distinctions.

My point is what the government has done is subtracted all religious (or at least xtian) aspects out of these holidays. Chistmas has become almost completely secularized that it survives quite nicely with its that ever dwindling religious signifigance (what ever you can conjure up out of a invented holiday to pacify solstice worshpers anyway) removed. Easter has been made a joke by making it completely pagan by the Govt (DBA wasn't really wrong about that one) So you could make a good argument that whatever Easter is promoting it ain't Christianity.

As I said there was a time not that long ago (i remember it in my childhood) when nativity scenes and nativity scence alone were in front of every city hall and the birth of christ was on everyones lips. but I have to say they just isn't the case any more. (at least in my region) And that's not a bad thing. However what I do see is a holiday thats chiefly celebrated by secularists of all religions in whipped into a consumerist frenzy. (you wouldn't belive the difference among those who observe it from a chiefly religious point of view)

Pesonally even with my "bron again" (I hate that term) I still don't see it as a religious holiday. it's a chance to get togethe rwith the family (who fall all over the religious spectrum) spend time and shre gifts. I fin'd it hard to shoehor God of jesus bac into the celebration (unless I want to start a fight)

Personally I thing the holdy desperately need a re introduction of the Krampus. (an Idea I am glad to see is gaining some steam)

[quaddriver]

you are all getting coal.

anthracite.

[rubato]

I thinkk you're confusing cultural activities vs. religious activities. out side of "the west" (and to lesser extent "the wests'" influence) these things are largely absent. (leaving out of course domestic Christian sects that ingore Xmas all together)

as you say if Xmas is as xmas does and xmas completely ignores it's "christan" origins wouldn't it make it non-christian?

The only difference between 'cultural' and 'religious' activities in this case is whether you're 'just going through the motions' or 'really mean it'. That is to say the difference is invisible to all but yourself.

yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

Yeah I really mean it when I sing santa Claus is comin to town.