I Knew That I Was Going To Like This Guy

[MajGenl.Meade]

I have no time for Calvinism....

Well that was inevitable!

[Econoline]

Joe - Der Herrgott nicht spielt auf die Glücksspielautomaten.

"Albert, stop telling God what to do!"
-- Niels Bohr

---

ETA: Damn! All the proofreading and previewing I can do sometimes makes no difference. Yes, I originally accidentally put an extra nicht in the above laboriously translated parody of a famous quote. I'm acknowledging here that it's been changed because I still think it would have been clever if I hadn't screwed it up, and because I don't want to make Joe's post below look ridiculous. Sorry. It probably would've seemed even worse if I had just posted the corrected version without comment AFTER Joe's response...(But I think I did get the Niels Bohr quote--his response to Einstein's statement--right! I want credit for that much!)[/background]

[Joe Guy]

Joe - Der Herrgott nicht nicht spielt auf die Glücksspielautomaten.

If he does not not, doesn't that means that he does...?

[Econoline]

See above note.

[Joe Guy]

Still....es ist sehr clever...

[dales]

[rubato]

I've read two biographies and misc. about Bohr and never seen that response, although I've seen the Einstein comment about playing dice often. Is there a source?

They were together at Princeton for a while but IIR the "god does not play dice" comment came much earlier, during the early days of the development of quantum theory.

Here we go:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein
"
Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. "

Letter to Max Born (4 December 1926); The Born-Einstein Letters (translated by Irene Born) (Walker and Company, New York, 1971) ISBN 0-8027-0326-7.

yrs,
rubato

[Andrew D]

Taking postings out of order:

I have no time for Calvinism.

As far as knowledge is concerned foreknowledge or otherwise.

Knowledge in and of itself is NOT causal...

I agree that knowledge, in and of itself, is not causal. God's knowledge that P will choose to do X does not make it absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X. God's knowledge that P will choose to do X proves that it is absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X.

That is sufficient to negate the possibility of human free will: If it is absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X, then P has no free will with respect to "choosing" to do X or not to do X. If it is absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X, then it is absolutely certain that P will choose to do X. And if what P will "choose" is absolutely certain, then P does not have free will with respect to that choice.

[Andrew D]

A note concerning "restrictive" choice: To do X or not to do X is not merely a choice between doing one thing and doing another. The choice not to do X includes all the options other than X.

I could choose to have sausage for breakfast (choose to do X), or I could choose not to have sausage for breakfast (choose not to do X). Choosing not to have sausage for breakfast (choosing not to do X) leaves many other options open: I could choose to have ham and eggs for breakfast. I could choose to have oatmeal for breakfast. I could choose to have no breakfast. Etc.

[Andrew D]

Free will is not negated by God's knowing which choice a person will freely make.

True, it does not. But that is not the problem. The problem is that God's knowing what "choice" a person will make negates the possibility that that person will make that "choice" "freely".

Please explain how you are not contradicting yourself, Andrew D.

What is the difference between "freely making a choice" or "making that 'choice' 'freely'"?

That is why I put "choice" and "freely" in quotation marks, Joe Guy.

Let me put it this way: By saying that "[f]ree will is not negated by God's knowing what choice a person will freely make," MajGenl.Meade is asserting that even in the circumstance of God's knowing which choice a person will make, that person is, nonetheless, making that choice freely. My assertion is that in that circumstance, that person is not making that "choice" "freely," because that person actually is not making a choice at all. One is merely doing the only thing that it was possible for one to do.

[Joe Guy]

That is why I put "choice" and "freely" in quotation marks, Joe Guy.

Let me put it this way: By saying that "[f]ree will is not negated by God's knowing what choice a person will freely make," MajGenl.Meade is asserting that even in the circumstance of God's knowing which choice a person will make, that person is, nonetheless, making that choice freely. My assertion is that in that circumstance, that person is not making that "choice" "freely," because that person actually is not making a choice at all. One is merely doing the only thing that it was possible for one to do.

Not speaking for Meade, however, he would say that God knows what someone will choose to do, therefore it is a choice.

If I am correct as to what Meade would say, would that mean that he did not have any choice other that to say what I said he would?...

Obviously, each person's opinion of whether or not anyone has free will depends on their concept of 'God'.

[Andrew D]

Do you believe in God or do you not believe in God?

* * *

And if you say "I don't know" then you also don't know whether or not God is omniscient. Hence you cannot possibly declare that the God you don't know exists or not "knew" you wouldn't know and therefore you had no choice but to remain in ignorance (old sense of the word - "not having knowledge")

Meade

That is a denial of all hypothetico-deductive reasoning. I am not "declaring" anything about whether God actually exists or actually is omniscient. I am taking as given the Christian proposition that God exists and is omniscient, and I am reasoning my way to the relevant conclusion which logically follows from that proposition.

If God exists and is omniscient, then it is impossible for human free will to exist.

If you wish to deny the proposition that God exists and is omniscient, you are perfectly free to do so. But my argument about what, by logical necessity, flows from that proposition does not require me to take any position as to whether that proposition is true or false.

I assert that if God exists and is what Christian doctrine asserts him (or her) to be, then human free will is impossible.

That assertion does not require me to take any position with respect to whether God exists and is what Christian doctrine asserts him (or her) to be.

I can assert that if object A is heavier than object B, then object A will fall faster than object B. Maybe I am right; maybe I am wrong. But that assertion does not require me to take any position as to whether object A really is heavier than object B.

I assert that if God is omniscient, then free will is impossible. Maybe I am right; maybe I am wrong. But that assertion does not require me to take any position as to whether God really is omniscient (or exists at all).

That is what hypothetico-deductive reasoning -- the core of all logical reasoning at least since the time of Plato -- is all about: One takes a proposition as given and reasons one's way to the conclusions which logically follow from that proposition.

[Andrew D]

Not speaking for Meade, however, he would say that God knows what someone will choose to do, therefore it is a choice.

Of course one can slap the label "choice" onto anything. One can say that the stone which one releases from one's hand "chooses" to fall downward rather than to fly upward.

[Joe Guy]

If a person believes God is omniscient, then he accepts that God is on a much higher plane of existence then humans and know things we could never understand.

Free will for us at the human level exists because we believe we have the ability to make any kind of choice in our lives. The fact that someone or something with much more understanding than us knew which choice we were going to make doesn't mean that we didn't make that choice.

When you teach a dog to sit at your command and then he does, that doesn't mean that the dog has no choice. It only means that you know what choice he will make.

I'm going to stop now. I'm not even arguing one side or another. I was only trying to understand your reasoning and now I do.

This is not an argument that one wins or loses. It is a discussion of what one does or does not believe and can't go any further than that.

[dales]

God don't fit in your silly little box.


Not directed at any poster but to humans in general.

[Econoline]

I've read two biographies and misc. about Bohr and never seen that response, although I've seen the Einstein comment about playing dice often. Is there a source?

They were together at Princeton for a while but IIR the "god does not play dice" comment came much earlier, during the early days of the development of quantum theory.

According to this page of Niels Bohr quotes:

Einstein, stop telling God what to do!
This quote is in response to Albert Einstein's famous quote attacking quantum physics, wherein he said that "God does not play dice with the universe." Physicist Enrico Fermi is also reputed to have made a similar statement. Given how well known Einstein's criticisms of quantum theory were, it's possible that both physicists independently made the same sort of response. Or, alternately, the response was made once and has been mis-attributed somewhere in the retelling of the tale. At this point, it's doubtful we'll ever know for certain.

...so it might be apocryphal--but then, according to the same source, another famous quote (which you have quoted in the past--"Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future.")--might also be apocryphal.

The exchange with Bohr supposedly happened at a symposium in Copenhagen in 1928. Apparently Einstein said the same thing about God not playing dice several times in several slightly different ways (e.g., "As I have said so many times, God doesn't play dice with the world."--1943 conversation with William Hermanns recorded in Hermanns' book Einstein and the Poet).

Even better than Einstein:

“God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”

― Terry Pratchett

[Rick]

Taking postings out of order:

I have no time for Calvinism.

As far as knowledge is concerned foreknowledge or otherwise.

Knowledge in and of itself is NOT causal...

I agree that knowledge, in and of itself, is not causal. God's knowledge that P will choose to do X does not make it absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X. God's knowledge that P will choose to do X proves that it is absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X.

That is sufficient to negate the possibility of human free will: If it is absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X, then P has no free will with respect to "choosing" to do X or not to do X. If it is absolutely impossible that P will choose not to do X, then it is absolutely certain that P will choose to do X. And if what P will "choose" is absolutely certain, then P does not have free will with respect to that choice.

Unless God MADE the individual "choose" the individual was free to "choose".

God knowing the individual was going to make the choice no more made him choose anymore than my knowing about a car wreck caused the car wreck.

That works every time for every instance...

[MajGenl.Meade]

I assert that if God exists and is what Christian doctrine asserts him (or her) to be, then human free will is impossible.

Indeed you assert it but are unable to prove it. You fail to demonstrate that another person's foreknowledge of a result has any retroactive influence whatever on that result. To assert (post facto) that a given was inevitable because it has occurred is to say nothing. All you are saying is that the result of a person's free choice was not a free choice because someone knew what their choice would be. This in no way negates the freedom of the choice itself - merely shows that the result of that free choice was foreseeable. Posit a creature (Madame Zelda) who can "see" all of time as if it were current, then your problems disappear. However, you insist on misstating "omniscience" as if were merely prior knowledge instead of current knowledge; if I observe your choice now, you are content that what I see is a current or even past event. But Christianity does not claim that God "foresees" alone - it claims that He has simultaneous knowledge that includes current and past (as we experience it). Your syllogism acts as if God were merely some prognosticating human.

My question to you (regardless of hypothetic argumentation) was: do you believe in God or not? (and I mean by that, the real, true, one and only God of Christ etc etc). Should be a simple question - yes, nor or I don't know?

Meade

[RayThom]

"... IF God exists... " and that's a gigantic "IF."

Absolutely, and unequivocally, not one scintilla of proof -- millennia prior to Abraham, and beyond -- any and all belief supported sola fide. Talmud scholar or village idiot the point is, and will be, forever moot. There is no there there.


AMEN.

[dales]

◄ Psalm 14:1 ►


New International Version (©2011)
For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For the choir director: A psalm of David. Only fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!

English Standard Version (©2001)
To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
<A Psalm of David.>> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For the choir director. Davidic. The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good.

NET Bible (©2006)
For the music director; by David. Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They sin and commit evil deeds; none of them does what is right.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The evil one has said in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupted and they are defiled in their schemes and there is none who does good.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
[For the choir director; by David.] Godless fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American King James Version
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American Standard Version
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Darby Bible Translation
{To the chief Musician. A Psalm of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good.

English Revised Version
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.

Webster's Bible Translation
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

World English Bible
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good.

Young's Literal Translation
To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, 'God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.