There is a Heaven

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
Personal philosophy welcomed.
Post Reply
User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Sean »

Oh good fuck!

A.) I never claimed that he was indoctrinated. In fact if you check back you'll see that I said it was unlikely that he was. Unlikely but not impossible as you are stating.

B.) Yours is not a different understanding. That is an absolute crock. Your definition was just completely fucking wrong! It's like you saying that 2+2=5 because you have a different understanding.

To recap:
Indoctrination does not allow for questioning of what one is 'taught'; it is a completely blinkered and closed-minded form of 'education'.
Eranu
In other words, catechism means to question. In the religious context, it may either teach spirituality or dogma, but it is a teaching method, not an indoctrination per se.
Uvavu
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21178
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I doubt that he was "indoctrinated" in the pejorative sense. But I wonder if we would not call most of really early infant "teaching" a form of indoctrination of a kind. As a parent or teacher one picks up a ball and says to the infant "Ball. Ball." and the idea is that junior will try to repeat the word. Which eventually he/she does. We name colours, objects, people over and over until junior approximates the soun which we then reward with smiles and laughs and pleasant faces. Once they are talking children start to ask questions but they are not complex (although a true answer might be!) - they want to know "what's that?" and "why?" We tell them and we don't expect a debate about it. Although why when answered is often followed by another "why?"

Given the unlikelihood of complicated cognition at four and below, I think it's possible that all teaching in those years is indoctrinal (another new word Sean?), if not so "forced" as one tends to mean by the word.

What I find difficult to believe is that this child has never been exposed to the concrete ideas and concepts that he later related. Did his parents never sing "Jesus" songs to him? Didn't they buy him a little childrens picture bible - 10 pages of that thick cardboardy stuff and each page has a picture - a cartoon David and Goliath; a nice white-bread Jesus (with blue eyes and blond hair) suffering the little children (and you parents/teachers know what that means!); cartoon Jesus on a cartoon donkey riding into a gate with cartoon children putting big leaves on the ground; angels hovering around the stable? They never did anything like that?

And as I asked before, did the child sit in church or was he put into a classroom at the church where nice people like me do all of the above? The children question all right - even at four - but their questions are "Why didn't Jesus shoot that man?" or "Did you know my sister has a puppy?" But that doesn't mean that if they were asked they cannot come up with long, confusing, complicated and detailed descriptions of Jesus playing ice hockey with the angels.

The child's talking of such things is not evidence for or against the existence of anything, let alone heaven.

Meade

Did I forget "IMO"?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Sean »

Interesting General.

I would however suggest that the teaching of very young children is more learning by rote and would only become indoctrination if any questions were answered with "Because I said so!"
What I find difficult to believe is that this child has never been exposed to the concrete ideas and concepts that he later related. Did his parents never sing "Jesus" songs to him? Didn't they buy him a little childrens picture bible - 10 pages of that thick cardboardy stuff and each page has a picture - a cartoon David and Goliath; a nice white-bread Jesus (with blue eyes and blond hair) suffering the little children (and you parents/teachers know what that means!); cartoon Jesus on a cartoon donkey riding into a gate with cartoon children putting big leaves on the ground; angels hovering around the stable? They never did anything like that?
Well we know that he at least recognises two 'Jesus songs' as he was able to name the two that the 'angels' sang to him. On the rest I am in absolute agreement with you. There is no way that he could live in such a religious household without having the picture bible etc. I wonder how many Pastors would take any chance on their child growing up not sharing their faith...

And as doctrinal is a word (meaning relating to doctrine) then indoctrinal is going straight into my updated dictionary. :ok
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11532
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Crackpot »

They could have been wearing nametags!
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21178
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Crackpot wrote:They could have been wearing nametags!
My pastor blanched when I suggested that was how Peter, James and John recognized Moses and Elijah (Matt 17:3). What, they had pictures?

And Sean.... "because I said so"? No? I'm guessing you've not been a parent???? :lol: :lol: :lol: I remember getting into a lot of trouble at Dover Grammar for Boys when I challenged the physics teacher on gravity - "Why couldn't space be like holding a blanket and putting some tennis balls and marbles on it and they'd settle into depressions?" I was 14 and hadn't heard of Einstein. "Because I said so!" So that just confirmed my hatrred of science classes (along with math with all those ridiculous sines and cosines and tangerines). I couda beena contendah.

*sob*
Meade
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

Big RR
Posts: 14639
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Big RR »

Well, Elijah might have been badly burned from the trip in the flaming chariot-easy to recognize then. And Moses, doesn't he look like Charlton Heston? (which begs the question on how they know what Heston looks like, but then those stick on name tags weren't invented then either, and without last names (and who knows either last name?), how would they know which Moses and Elijah they were?)

User avatar
loCAtek
Posts: 8421
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm
Location: My San Ho'metown

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by loCAtek »

Dear Genr'l Sir, without having read the book, it can be gleaned from the excerpts and videos that most of young Coltan's exposure to his families faith was of the children-friendly bible stories variety.

Image

Jesus is indeed cartoonic in some, and most of the stories are sweet and simple, with a message that God and Jesus loves YOU.
I know quite a few households that aren't deeply religious, that include a few such books in their child's library. Seems to me a big favorite is the story of Noah and the Ark. Kids love animals, and the whole inventory of the critters coming onboard is usually the biggest highlight of the storybook (Not the tension, not the starvation, not the first fruitless search of the crow and certainly not the seduction afterwards of Noah by his daughters, Ha!) No, those things are taught later at a more advanced age.

In Coltan's case, his father who says he did not teach his son about the Crucifixion, was surprised to hear his son repeatedly refer to Jesus' 'marks'. At first, he (the father) didn't understand what his son meant, so then asked his son, "Where were Jesus' marks?" Now, his boy was not taught the word for 'stigmata', nor do any of the bible story books for kids show Jesus with any (see: example above). Yet, in answer to the question, 4-year-old Coltan touched his palms and feet, and explained that's where he saw marks.


Excerpt (go to page 65)

Now, if there is such a powerful indoctrination going on in the Burpo household, what with the Father apparently stamping scripture into his oldest son; then the daughter and especially the youngest son, you would expect to be entranced zombie automatons, or spittle-spewing, evangelical prophets, trying to out do their brother.
However, that is not the case, little brother Colby who should have gotten a double dose of dogma daily (if that's what was going on); is the same age today as Coltan was when he had his NDE. Colby isn't having any visions, nor speaks in any tongues. In fact, Dad says he is more interested in Chuck-E-Cheese, that Jeez.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 19492
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by BoSoxGal »

I'm glad you take comfort in Colton's story, loCA.

Some of us simply don't buy it. That's all.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
loCAtek
Posts: 8421
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm
Location: My San Ho'metown

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by loCAtek »

Actually, I don't take it literally, but symbolically, and I understand that a child's symbolism may seem too simplified to explain a near death experience.

Not too long ago, I posted an expedience by an adult, who uses different terms to describe what he saw. Also, this is an 'un-indoctrinated' individual, from the first he explains he has had no real religious instruction, and things happened to him that he'd never heard about before (please, bare with the lady presenter, she has nothing to do with this man's account and she's gone shortly), but he keeps saying, "I never heard about this before.";





Is this also, the only way you can or will experience the spiritual world? No, I don't' believe so, each will be tailored to the needs of the individual, at that time.

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Gob »

Sean wrote:You're doing it again Lo... You obviously didn't quite understand what indoctrination meant but rather than admit that you're digging ever deeper and making a bit of an arse of yourself to be frank. There is no shame in admitting that you are not the fountain of all knowledge. People tend to respect you more...
But you get less attention...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Sean »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:And Sean.... "because I said so"? No? I'm guessing you've not been a parent???? :lol: :lol: :lol: I remember getting into a lot of trouble at Dover Grammar for Boys when I challenged the physics teacher on gravity - "Why couldn't space be like holding a blanket and putting some tennis balls and marbles on it and they'd settle into depressions?" I was 14 and hadn't heard of Einstein. "Because I said so!" So that just confirmed my hatrred of science classes (along with math with all those ridiculous sines and cosines and tangerines). I couda beena contendah.

*sob*
Meade
Actually you guess wrong General.

My point is that "because I said so" (or any similar phrase really) means "don't argue with me and don't question me". Sound familiar? ;)
In Coltan's case, his father who says he did not teach his son about the Crucifixion, was surprised to hear his son repeatedly refer to Jesus' 'marks'. At first, he (the father) didn't understand what his son meant, so then asked his son, "Where were Jesus' marks?" Now, his boy was not taught the word for 'stigmata', nor do any of the bible story books for kids show Jesus with any (see: example above). Yet, in answer to the question, 4-year-old Coltan touched his palms and feet, and explained that's where he saw marks.
LMAO - They always go that step too far don't they? Are we seriously meant to believe that:
1.) A four year old child in a religious household doesn't yet know what Easter is all about?
2.) He has never seen a crucifix and asked what it was?
3.) His father (a Pastor no less) didn't understand what he was referring to when he repeatedly referred to 'Jesus' marks'?

Next week Chapter three: "My son had never seen a crib either but seemed to know what hay was somehow..." :loon


Anyway, if this were true wouldn't it make Jesus a bit of a twat for appearing to a frightened 4 yr old with full stigmata? :lol:
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Gob »

Jesus had "sea blue eyes"?

The best idea we have of what Jesus would have looked like, is this;

Image

Yet more proof, not that any were neeeded that Colton Burpo was just relaying whatever religious thoughts had been put in his head by being brought up in a church.

Hmmm lets see now..

Not only is the kids father the pastor of the church, and a keen youth pastor..
Todd Burpo
Todd Burpo is the pastor of Crossroads Wesleyan Church in Imperial, Nebraska (Population: 1,762) where his sermons are broadcast locally every Sunday via the local radio station. He volunteers at Chase County Public Schools as wrestling coach for Junior high school students, as well as serving as a member of the school board. In emergencies Todd can be found working shoulder-to-shoulder with the Imperial Volunteer Fire Department as a fire fighter. He is also the chaplain for the Nebraska State Volunteer Firefighter's Association. To support his family, Todd also operates a company called Overhead Door Specialists. Todd graduated from Oklahoma Wesleyan University in 1991 summa cum laude with a BA in Theology. He was ordained in 1994.
A keen youth pastoer, but the church also employs...



By Carolyn Lee
The Imperial Republican
Atkinson, Neb. native Jared Rentschler and his family are settling into Imperial just as he’s settling into his new job as youth pastor for Crossroads Wesleyan Church.
The 27-year old began his duties the first part of December. He oversees the youth ministry and Wednesday night youth group, assists other staff at the church, and is involved with the technology of running audio and video parts of services and programs.
Prior to becoming involved in ministry, Rentschler studied mechanical engineering for two years at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.
He and wife Misty volunteered as youth leaders at Shepherd’s Heart Wesleyan Church in Lincoln beginning in 2002. They then moved back to Atkinson while she finished an elementary teaching degree.
Rentschler was hired full time as a youth minister at Faith Wesleyan Church in Atkinson for five years. He is pursuing a degree in pastoral ministries on-line from Nazarene Bible College in Colorado Springs, Colo.
The couple has three children and one due in March. They are Brianna, 5, Madeline, 4 and Andrew, 2.
The youth pastor enjoys being with friends and playing video games. He also enjoyed remodeling the house the couple owned in Atkinson.
Oh, Todd Burpo is also an author of religious books on his son's visit to heaven, or emegency surgery dream, depending on whether you are sane or not...


This gets more laughable every post...
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
loCAtek
Posts: 8421
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm
Location: My San Ho'metown

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by loCAtek »

They all had wings too, Gob ;) It's funny you'd understand those were symbolic, but get bent over the color of someone's eyes.



i guess if you're shocked a Christian boy sees his NDE in Christian symbols, I should be shocked a Welsh speaks Gaylrrrccck as well, as English.

User avatar
The Hen
Posts: 5941
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:56 am

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by The Hen »

So he symbolically visited heaven as opposed to actually visiting heaven?

That probably sums up my view of the story as well.
Bah!

Image

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Sean »

Maybe a quick show of hands as to who believes that he actually saw and interacted with Jesus and some angels would help this move on...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
Gob
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:40 am

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Gob »

The Hen wrote:So he symbolically visited heaven as opposed to actually visiting heaven?

Yes and people were symbolicly not wearing specs, had blue eyes, had wings, and appeared as "little sisters" rather than aborted foetuses, and all sorts of handy symbolic stuff, which enebled a four year old to present a dream which has been translated into good old fashioned hard right wing American "Christianity" terms by his father..

How handy!
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11532
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Crackpot »

I prefer this one:

Image
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Sean »

At least your one would get through airport security CP...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21178
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Jesus saves!

But Socrates nets the rebound.
Image
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 5826
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:17 am
Location: Gold Coast

Re: There is a Heaven

Post by Sean »

Actually Jesus played up front before becoming a keeper.

Until the day he went up for a cross and got nailed...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

Post Reply