heaven is a ball...

[Timster]

Excellent point Sir!

[Crackpot]

YOu missed one point. She was a Prophet. A prophet is specifically a religious authority.

[Rick]

YOu missed one point. She was a Prophet. A prophet is specifically a religious authority.

I would figger yer actually referring to her being a judge.

Some examples of New Testament Prophetesses:

Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist prophesied in Luke 1:41-45
Anna is mentioned as a prophetess in Luke 2:36-38
Philips daughters had the power of prophecy Acts 21:9

Then we have Jezebel in Revelation 2:20. The letter to the church at Thyatira was blemished with this reference. Weather her real name or not, she was a self professed prophet. Of those prophetesses mentioned in the new testament she is the only one condemned, and the only one to try to usurp the authority of men.

As for Deborah being a Judge, she appears to be the 1st example of a government run by a female.
However having it raised as an issue against Paul, you are the first I've run across CP. None of the literature that I have gives it a second glance.

I would think the main reason would be that she was placed in a position of authority by God as opposed to the example of Jezebel...

[Crackpot]

Not Many give the Simon the sorcerer passage a second thought either but there you go...

Deborah is interesting in that she is described a both a civil and a religious authority (by way of being a Prophet)

Note there is a difference between one who Prophesies and a Prophet in Old Testament if Not biblical terms. Especially a Prophet who is Judged to be true. If anything your examples lend credence to my argument (especially in the case of Anna)

Form Deuteronomy 18:
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

[Rick]

Not Many give the Simon the sorcerer passage a second thought either but there you go...

In what respect?

Again Deborah was from the old testament the ones I mentioned were from the new.

If you wish to take issue with Paul fine, I don't have a problem with what he has to say on this matter...

[MajGenl.Meade]

YOu missed one point. She was a Prophet. A prophet is specifically a religious authority.

C-P, I'm not aware of any evidence that a "prophet" necessarily is a religious "authority" in OT terms. Hebrew religious "authorities" were men from a specific tribe; that of Levi. Priests were all men descended from the Aaronic branch; other Levites performed religious duties such as looking after the tabernacle and later temple, preparing the sacrifices and so on. Jeremiah 5:31 distinguishes between priests, who did have religious authority in the Temple, and prophets. BTW at least one woman was styled "prophetess" because she was married to a prophet (Isa 8:3).

A prophet relayed a message from God - both true and false claims being made for that provenance apparently. Some prophets were false ones - obviously they had no authority. (Noadiah prophesying against Nehemia NE 6:14; God warns against them Deut 13:2-3; as does Jesus in Luke 6:26 and Matt 7:15

Relaying a message from God does not place a person in a teaching "authority over men" in a church body (Paul's specific subject). If he was even aware of Anna, he wouldn't have classified her as having authority over men. Throughout Hebrew history, God had spoken through men, women and even children (Samuel). He even spoke through a burning bush and Balaam's donkey (I just didn't want to write "ass" there) but the donkey ain't no religious authority, although one or two bushes have achieved power of sorts.

Meade

(I think you are right that it's 1Corinthians 11 that contains the objected-to language ?)

[Crackpot]

I would think relaying a message from God would make one a "Religious Authority".

[MajGenl.Meade]

We're in semitic semantics again.

"Religious Authority" means being empowered to conduct, participate in, enforce, regulate and otherwise command the practice, doctrine and operation of a religious body or organization (priest)

or

"Religious authority" means being empowered to speak with authority on some facet of faith (prophet)

Paul spoke of the former. Deborah would be an example of the latter, assuming she wasn't a false prophet.

Meade

[Crackpot]

I Think you can safely assume One called a Prophet in the Bible whose claim isn't contradicted is true.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Not so fast, grasshopper!

Deut 13:2-4 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer who promises you a sign or wonder, urging you to follow other gods, whom you have not known, and to serve them: even though the sign or wonder he has foretold you comes to pass,  pay no attention to the words of that prophet or that dreamer"

Anyhoo, I was being facetious. Deborah passed on God's message to Barak dutifully and the Lord gave victory to Israel, as He told her He would. Mind you, she did warn him that his victory wouldn't be regarded so highly because he insisted she go with him and people would credit a mere woman for much of it. She and Paul might have got along famously!

Meade