The Doctor Speaks...

[thestoat]

Lo, are you having a laugh here? Why do you constantly ignore what is being said and just go off on one, blindly making statements nobody is disputing?

Once again a sex offender is not necessarily a pedophile.

Where has ANYONE said that??? Utterly and completely irrelevant. NOBODY HAS SAID A SEX OFFENDER MUST BE A PEDOPHILE.

So, a true statement is

Lo acknowledges that pedophilia in the church is still happening and being covered up to this day

(If this is not correct then please correct the statement - but not with one of a completely different meaning.

Is the statement correct or not?

[Gob]

Ah, the sweet sound of people pissing into the wind......

[MajGenl.Meade]

"Quick lads! He's down! Let's bash him!"

[Scooter]

You know, Meade, the business world is replete with examples of companies that have managed to redeem their reputations after losing the public trust through some sort of scandal. I think back to Johnson and Johnson during the Tylenol scare of the early 1980s, and similar cases of tainted or defective products which led to deaths. What they all have in common is a demonstrated willingness by senior management to take ownership of the problem, the avoidance of any recourse to scapegoats in order to appear less culpable themselves, a clear understanding of the root causes of the problem, and constant, open and honest communication with the public on how the crisis was being handled. With respect to the sexual abuse of children by its clergy, the Holy Catholic Church of Rome has failed on all four counts. That is why its reputation is in tatters and why it continues to be "bashed", as you put it.

And frankly, to paint the Church as the victim in this affair, in whatever degree, is to join the ranks of the child rapists and to side with them in re-victimizing the children they harmed.

[Crackpot]

I don't think he's referring to the RCC

[Scooter]

Well, the guy in the picture sure doesn't look Amish...

[dales]

[rubato]

You know, Meade, the business world is replete with examples of companies that have managed to redeem their reputations after losing the public trust through some sort of scandal. I think back to Johnson and Johnson during the Tylenol scare of the early 1980s, and similar cases of tainted or defective products which led to deaths. What they all have in common is a demonstrated willingness by senior management to take ownership of the problem, the avoidance of any recourse to scapegoats in order to appear less culpable themselves, a clear understanding of the root causes of the problem, and constant, open and honest communication with the public on how the crisis was being handled. With respect to the sexual abuse of children by its clergy, the Holy Catholic Church of Rome has failed on all four counts. That is why its reputation is in tatters and why it continues to be "bashed", as you put it.

And frankly, to paint the Church as the victim in this affair, in whatever degree, is to join the ranks of the child rapists and to side with them in re-victimizing the children they harmed.

+1

yrs,
rubato

[loCAtek]

LOL @ Gob, trying so hard to ignore me.

Lo, are you having a laugh here? Why do you constantly ignore what is being said and just go off on one, blindly making statements nobody is disputing?

Once again a sex offender is not necessarily a pedophile.

Where has ANYONE said that??? Utterly and completely irrelevant. NOBODY HAS SAID A SEX OFFENDER MUST BE A PEDOPHILE.

So, a true statement is

Lo acknowledges that pedophilia in the church is still happening and being covered up to this day

(If this is not correct then please correct the statement - but not with one of a completely different meaning.

Is the statement correct or not?

What's being covered up are cases of sex offenses, not cases of pedophilia, since we both agree they are not the same thing. The church, 'covered up' the sexual orientation of celibate homosexuals, far more often than celibate pedophiles.

A pedophile may be one his/her whole life and not commit any crime that needs covering up.

Just for the clarification: sex offenders are most often are heterosexual (their crime is about power, not sexual preference) and not pedosexual.

WiKi

Pedosexuality

To be pedosexual does not necessarily mean that one acts upon their desires.

[thestoat]

Great - so you admit sex offences are still being covered up. This is a massive step forward!

Now, I'd be interested to know why you don't think most of these are to do with children. In a previous post I mentioned many, many covered up cases using words like

cover up the molestation of three boys

a priest accused of sexually abusing a 17-year old female minor

one of many alleged victims complains that he was abused in an orphanage

sexually abusing minors

An awful lot of children mentioned in just that small quote. Certainly some of the cases may be "mere" sex offences, but there are an awful lot of paedophilia cases in there too!

Thus when you say

What's being covered up are cases of sex offenses, not cases of pedophilia

That is wrong - both are being covered up.

Agree?

[loCAtek]

Great - so you admit sex offences are still being covered up. This is a massive step forward!

Great, you admit they're sex offenses and not pedophilia. This is a massive step forward!

Now, I'd be interested to know why you don't think most of these are to do with children. ['Eh? When did I say that?]

In a previous post I mentioned many, many covered up cases using words like

cover up the molestation of three boys

a priest accused of sexually abusing a 17-year old female minor

one of many alleged victims complains that he was abused in an orphanage

sexually abusing minors

An awful lot of children mentioned in just that small quote. Certainly some of the cases may be "mere" sex offences, but there are an awful lot of paedophilia cases in there too!

Thus when you say

What's being covered up are cases of sex offenses, not cases of pedophilia

That is wrong - both are being covered up.

Agree?

Nope. You 'cover up' crimes from persecution.

Pedophilia, in itself is not a crime, so long as it is not acted out.

While a sex offense is a criminal act, and therefore prosecutable. If it's being prosecuted, it's not being covered up. So, you're examples are moot.

[loCAtek]

There is BTW an argument [not mine] that post-pubescent minors, are not children.

It varies state by state in these United States.

In Hawaii, for example, the 'age of consent [to sexual activity]' is 14 years of age; so the crime of 'sex with 17 year old' would not apply there .. and would certainly not constitute pedophilia.

[loCAtek]

Wiki

The term pedophile is commonly used to describe all child sexual abuse offenders, including those who do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards, which is seen as problematic by researchers,[11][15] as most distinguish between child molesters and pedophiles.[3][15][16][43] A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is commonly assumed to be and referred to as a pedophile; however, there may be other motivations for the crime[50] (such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner).[65] As child sexual abuse may or may not be an indicator that its perpetrator is a pedophile, offenders may be separated into two types: Exclusive (i.e., "true pedophiles") and non-exclusive (or, in some cases, "non-pedophilic"). According to a U.S. study on 2429 adult male pedophile sex offenders, only 7% identified themselves as exclusive; indicating that many or most offenders fall into the non-exclusive category.[14] However, the Mayo Clinic reports perpetrators who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia offend more often than non-pedophile perpetrators, and with a greater number of victims. They state that approximately 95% of child sexual abuse incidents are committed by the 88% of child molestation offenders who meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia.[14] A behavioral analysis report by the FBI states that a "high percentage of acquaintance child molesters are preferential sex offenders who have a true sexual preference for [prepubescent] children (i.e., true pedophiles)."[12]

So, how many 'True Pedophiles' are there in the church, Stoat? That should be established before any more accusations.

[Scooter]

You're correct, loCA, "pedophile" is probably being used colloquially in some cases when it is not appropriate. "Child rapist" or, more specifically in this case, "child raping priests" is much more accurate. I'm certainly happy to use either term from now on. I certainly don't accept minimizing the depravity of what these supposed "men of God" did by using the generic "sex offender", which puts them in the same category as a couple of teenagers discovered making out in their car.

[The Hen]

So the real question should be how many child rapists has the church protected?

One protected child raping priest is one child raping priest too many.

[thestoat]

Great, you admit they're sex offenses and not pedophilia. This is a massive step forward!

Er, no, I admit no such thing. Go back and look - I have quoted terms twice to help you. Some are "standard" sex offences, others are sex offenses against children - this is pedophilia, and it is this to which I am referring since you spoke of the "priests are pedophiles myth"

While a sex offense is a criminal act, and therefore prosecutable. If it's being prosecuted, it's not being covered up. So, you're examples are moot.

That is a poor attempt at covering your statements. The whole point is that the alleged perps tried to cover it up, and typically got help from the church. Sure, they have been exposed and, if guilty, may they rot in hell, but who is to say there aren't other cases still being covered up? The whole institution is rotten to the core (literally, since even the pope has tried to hide behind his badge of office) and to have people like you trying to defend them and make the situation out to be less serious than it is does more harm than good.

[loCAtek]

You're correct, loCA, "pedophile" is probably being used colloquially in some cases when it is not appropriate. "Child rapist" or, more specifically in this case, "child raping priests" is much more accurate. I'm certainly happy to use either term from now on.

I

I'm not familiar with 'child rapist' being used legally; again that would be an inappropriate colloquialism, as is the use of 'child molester; in court to describe a sex offender.

certainly don't accept minimizing the depravity of what these supposed "men of God" did by using the generic "sex offender", which puts them in the same category as a couple of teenagers discovered making out in their car.

Good, since no one has suggested doing so.
In fact, the majority of sex offenders including those in the clergy do not range into the level of pedophilia or rape. Probably the highest numbers of sex offenders involving children, are those who buy and sell kiddie pornography.

[loCAtek]

Some are "standard" sex offences, others are sex offenses against children - this is pedophilia, and it is this to which I am referring since you spoke of the "priests are pedophiles myth"

I beg your pardon but that's incorrect.

From, Facts about Sex Offenders; Office of the Attorney General; State of California;
Myth: Child sexual abusers are only attracted to children [are pedophiles] and are not capable of appropriate sexual relationships.

False. While there is a small subset of child sexual abusers who are exclusively attracted to children, the majority of the individuals who sexually abuse children are (or have previously been) attracted to adults.

While a sex offense is a criminal act, and therefore prosecutable. If it's being prosecuted, it's not being covered up. So, you're examples are moot.

That is a poor attempt at covering your statements.

Have the legal definitions been helpful? They demonstrate that abuses occur at all walks of society, not just religious institutions; which is why the legal system does not discriminate against any persons or occupations.

[loCAtek]

So the real question should be how many child rapists has the church protected?

One protected child raping priest is one child raping priest too many.

Well, the legal definition of rape is 'forced penetration'. Most sex offenders do not engage in violent force. Most are content with photographic or illustrative (comic book) pornography. Which is another reason why 'child rape' isn't an accurate colloquialism.

[Scooter]

Are you seriously suggesting that most of the priests involved engaged in nothing more with their victims than viewing pornography?

And whenever their victims were underage (i.e. in almost all cases), "forcible" is irrelevant, being under the age of consent makes it RAPE