Voluntary segregation?

[Gob]

'We should not pander to extremism':

Michael Gove warns over segregation of men and women in university lectures


Andrew Woodcock Friday 13 December 2013
Gove said the guidance issued by Universities UK (UUK) was "pandering to extremism" and insisted that speakers who demand separate seating for men and women in their audience should not be indulged by the authorities.

UUK chief executive Nicola Dandridge defended the policy yesterday, insisting that gender segregation was not "alien to our culture".

Ms Dandridge insisted that institutions would not enforce segregation but if participants were happy to sit in separate groups, that would be permitted as long as there was no disadvantage.

But Mr Gove told the Daily Mail: "We should not pander to extremism. Speakers who insist on segregating audiences should not be indulged by educators.

"This guidance is wrong and harmful. Universities UK should withdraw it immediately."

The row over segregation has sparked protests from students, and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna said he was "horrified" by Universities UK's position.

Last month a UUK report stated that university officials must consider both freedom of speech obligations and discrimination and equality laws when considering a request from a speaker for segregated audiences.

It said that if officials decide to proceed with an event with segregation, they must consider whether a seating plan would be discriminatory to one gender.

But it went on to say that if side-by-side seating was enforced without offering an alternative non-segregated seating area, it could be deemed as discriminatory against men or women who hold feminist beliefs.

Ms Dandridge said: "We are not talking about universities enforcing segregation... In practice, if the people coming to this event said 'We do not want to segregate and separate out men and women', it is inconceivable that the university would impose it on them.

"What we are talking about in practice is voluntary segregation and that's what happens in practice if people participating choose."

[MajGenl.Meade]

But it went on to say that if side-by-side seating was enforced without offering an alternative non-segregated seating area

I guess you have to go to University in the UK to understand that sentence. We have side-by-side seating in our church here in Bloem and thought that was non-segregated - but there you go.

[Gob]

With women obliged to sit yards behind chairs reserved exclusively for men, the photograph above shows the shocking reality of gender segregation at a British university.

It was taken earlier this year at a training course at Leicester University organised by its Islamic Society. The course was entitled Call Of Duty and it featured a guest speaker from a hardline Islamic group.

Rupert Sutton of campaign group Student Rights, which monitors campus extremism, said: ‘The obvious discrimination in this picture is what segregated seating can mean in practice – women pushed to the back of the hall, while men are given the best seats to see and hear the speaker.’




The disturbing image emerged at the end of a week in which Universities UK – the vice-chancellors’ association – backed down from guidelines it had previously given that apparently allowed campus Islamic societies to impose segregated seating at meetings.

The guidelines have been withdrawn while Universities UK consults with the Equality and Human Rights Commission about the appropriate position. It is expected to be forced to back down permanently.

A recent report by Student Rights found that over a quarter of visits by Islamic speakers to British universities resulted in segregated meetings. Last week the controversy over gender segregation prompted the Prime Minister to intervene.

Mr Cameron said: ‘I’m absolutely clear that there should not be segregated audiences for visiting speakers to universities in Britain. That is not the right approach, the guidance should say that universities should not allow this.’

The Leicester University event in February was billed as a ‘Dawah Training Course’. Dawah is the word Muslims use to mean ‘preaching’ or ‘invitation to Islam’.

[Scooter]

The guidelines have been withdrawn while Universities UK consults with the Equality and Human Rights Commission about the appropriate position.

There is no appropriate position other than people should be able sit wherever the fuck they want. If you want your audience segregated by sex, hold the event in a mosque or somewhere else where that sort of shit is the norm.

[Gob]

Female students were banned from speaking at a 'degrading' university seminar at a top London university, it has emerged.

Women attending the class at Queen Mary University were also forced to walk through a 'sisters only' entrance before taking their seats at the event which was held by the university's Islamic society.

The event last month forced female attendees to write down their questions for Ustadh Abu Abdillah, while male students raised their hands to be addressed by the speaker.

One woman who was present at the event titled Deception of the Dunya described the experience as 'degrading'.

She told the Sunday Times: 'Its not just about segregation but also about how they're treating women.'


'It's one thing to be segregated but a whole other thing being told we are not allowed to speak and men being told not to look at woman,' said the Arts student who wished to remain anonymous for fear of being attacked for her views.

The devout Muslim said the experience was 'embarrassing', before adding: 'You just want to shake them and say "Why are you being so disrespectful?"'.

A spokesman for the university said: 'Segregated events are not in line with Queen Mary's values or equality policy.

'We will be raising this with our students' union as this should extend to student society-organised events with external speakers such as this one.'

[Sue U]

The guidelines have been withdrawn while Universities UK consults with the Equality and Human Rights Commission about the appropriate position.

There is no appropriate position other than people should be able sit wherever the fuck they want. If you want your audience segregated by sex, hold the event in a mosque or somewhere else where that sort of shit is the norm.

What Scooter said.

[Gob]

Signs of sanity?

The body that represents Britain's universities has withdrawn guidance on the gender segregation of audiences in lectures and debates after an intervention from David Cameron.

Universities UK (UUK) said on Fridaythat the controversial policy which allowed the voluntary separation of men and women at events such as lectures on Islam by visiting speakers was being dropped pending a review.

The body had sought guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), which said that, while the law allows segregation by gender in premises being used for religious purposes, it was not permissible in an academic meeting or in a lecture open to the public.

The announcements from UUK and the EHRC followed severe criticisms from the prime minister's spokesman on Friday morning, who had said UUK should urgently review the guidance.

The U-turn is an embarrassment for UUK, which has attempted to fight off criticisms over the policy for several days. The body had insisted that it had sought legal advice from a senior QC, who said that gender segregation should be allowed if requested by the lecturer and students.

But yesterday, Nicola Dandridge, chief executive of UUK, said it had withdrawn a case study which had been used to justify the policy. "Universities UK agrees entirely with the prime minister that universities should not enforce gender segregation on audiences at the request of guest speakers. However, where the gender segregation is voluntary, the law is unclear. We are working with our lawyers and the EHRC to clarify the position.

"Meanwhile the case study which triggered this debate has been withdrawn pending this review."

[Lord Jim]

The guidelines have been withdrawn while Universities UK consults with the Equality and Human Rights Commission about the appropriate position.

There is no appropriate position other than people should be able sit wherever the fuck they want. If you want your audience segregated by sex, hold the event in a mosque or somewhere else where that sort of shit is the norm.

What Scooter said.

Well now, this is so typical of Sue...

While at the same time she's busy being completely wrong in the thread about the UK offering sanctuary to pedophiles and murderers, here she is in this thread being completely right....

[Big RR]

Yep, sue and scooter got it exactly right.

[rubato]

On the whole its a good thing. An opportunity for the community to reify its principles in the face of an exogenous challenge. By doing so they concretely reaffirm the principle of gender equality and communicate back to the larger community what their principles are. C'est bon!

Periodic exposure to a pathogen can keep the immune system tuned up and ready to go. Lack of regular contact with children used to be an increased risk factor for shingles.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Periodic exposure to a pathogen can keep the immune system tuned up and ready to go.

Hence our tolerance of you here.

[Lord Jim]

[rubato]

Periodic exposure to a pathogen can keep the immune system tuned up and ready to go.

Hence our tolerance of you here.

"Tolerance" ? That is what you call an endless and mostly unprovoked stream of nasty comments like this?

What a bright little candle you are.


Yrs,
Rubato

[Lord Jim]

mostly unprovoked stream of nasty comments

CP, I believe he's so far out of it that he's actually somehow managed to convince himself of this. I really don't think he's kidding.

[rubato]

Unable to grasp facts when they are right in front of him.



yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

Unable to grasp facts when they are right in front of him.



yrs,
rubato

So what is that rube?

An admission that you are kidding, (and you're saying I'm not "grasping" that) or a rare expression of self-realization, stated in the third person?

[rubato]

On the whole its a good thing. An opportunity for the community to reify its principles in the face of an exogenous challenge. By doing so they concretely reaffirm the principle of gender equality and communicate back to the larger community what their principles are. C'est bon!

Periodic exposure to a pathogen can keep the immune system tuned up and ready to go. Lack of regular contact with children used to be an increased risk factor for shingles.

yrs,
rubato

This was an opportunity for you to engage in the question on a higher and more interesting level but you were able only to produce crap. Pity, for you.


In any case, as I was saying, perhaps it is better for the values of a community to be periodically challenged by external and sometimes internally disruptive forces so that we can appreciate who we are and who we want to be as a group. One danger for a liberal democratic society is that we take so much for granted what we believe in that we can no longer articulate why we believe it and why it is important. We take for granted the things we have without thinking or trying to have them; we forget very quickly that gender equality is important. A minor prod like this, which has no hope of changing things for the worst, is really the best thing we can hope for.



Society is an organism. Community is an organism. They respond to both change and to stasis. If you remove external pressures on a community of organisms they will lose the genetic ability to resist that pressure. Stress is good as long as it is below that threshold which can cause harm. We should not try to eliminate it.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Providing yet another opportunity to engage in the substance. For those who can.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Insubstantially, I am reminded of the necessity for irritants within a community to be maintained as irritants to prevent mission creep. Such as the wearing of school caps. Once the revolution has removed the caps, the next set of radicals must move on to another demand - perhaps removing school ties - and once that's achieved the next generation must rebel against.... as Marlon Brando said... "what have you got?" Eventually we move from being nice chaps dressed in ties and caps to tattooed ne'er-do-wells with what passes for brains held in by safety pins, fully equipped with publicly funded condoms, social diseases, violent video games and convinced that women are only for one thing (now that the kitchen's been ruled out).

Oh for the good old days.