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Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science" ....

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:19 pm
by Lord Jim
This piece was in last Sunday's Insight section of the Chron:
What Bill Nye the Science Guy and Ken Ham missed

Once again the perennial talk of a "war" between religion and science is upon us. In an Internet-televised debate, creationist Ken Ham went head-to-head with TV scientist Bill Nye on the question of whether creation is a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era. Unsurprisingly, Ham insisted that it is, while Nye objected. As so often with these debates, religion and science were simplistically pitted against each other, proving once more that what the opponents in - and organizers of - that sort of spectacle are missing is the capacity for critical thinking.

Whether you see religion and science as irreconcilable enemies or not depends first and foremost on the premises with which you engage the question of their relationship. For example, if you agree with Ham that all we have to do to figure out the origins of the various species on Earth is to pick up the Bible and read it literally, you are bound for conflict with evolutionary biology. If your response to Ham is that only scientific evidence leads you to the truth, you are likewise a far cry from common ground. The question is whether these are the only two options when it comes to evaluating the origins of biological diversity.

Not only are there viable alternatives, but these diametrically opposed perspectives are also each fundamentally irrational.

The problem with biblical literalism a la Ham is its dismissal of interpretation as a necessary aspect of every act of reading. Every text, no matter how simple, requires the reader to somehow disclose its meaning through careful negotiation. Words are symbols with multiple meanings, which is why in conversations we more often than not have to ask for clarification.

Try it out: You are at the grocery store and try to buy what is on your shopping list: diapers. Do you buy the overnight or the normal daytime ones? And what size do you get? The problem does not get any easier when you pick up 2,000-year-old Hebrew poetry. Add to that the numerous contradictions, obscure passages, redacted versions, and the translation from the Hebrew into English (every translation is always also an interpretation) and you can easily see why any attempt at reading the Bible according to the mere meaning of the words is futile.

Insisting that "science is the only way to the truth" does not fare any better.

In order for this truth claim to hold, it would have to be scientific in nature, which of course it is not. The statement is a metaphysical one that cannot be tested empirically - a necessity for any scientific claim. Hence, if it were true that science is the only way to the truth, the statement would be meaningless. And if it were indeed meaningful and science were the only valid path, it would undermine itself as a nonscientific claim and be false. I can hardly think of a more irrational and naive presupposition than that.

How, then, can religion and science be related in a productive fashion, aside from the obvious, abandoning biblical literalism and paradoxical metaphysics? Philosopher of science Ernan McMullin proposed to look for consonance between religious and scientific knowledge claims. He argues that as long as theological doctrines and scientific theories do not contradict one another, there is no need for any conflict.

Yet such consonance is only possible if both disciplines hold themselves to the highest scholarly standards and remain academically honest. Any dissonance would require further interpretation of either the scientific data or, more likely, the biblical texts. Thus, if the believer interprets the Genesis account of humanity's origin too literally, dissonance will ensue and a new interpretation is needed. This, by the way, is nothing new. Already in the year 395, St. Augustine had warned against a literal reading of the six "days" of creation.

Which leaves us with the question Nye and Ham discussed, whether creation is still a meaningful concept in today's scientific world. As a theologian and biologist I would have to say, yes! God created the human being and all other species through the free process of biological evolution. Instead of asking for equal teaching time of pseudo-scientific creationism or demanding religion to be banned from the public sphere, let's teach our high school students to engage religion and science philosophically like McMullin, so they can draw their own conclusions in a well-informed way.

Oliver Putz is a lecturer in religion and science at Santa Clara University. To comment, go to http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/submissions/#1.
I don't agree with every single point in the article, but I certainly agree with the overall conclusion that I highlighted...

I've never bought into this idea that there's a natural and irreconcilable chasm between religious belief and science; I see that as a false dichotomy that is reinforced by absolutists on both sides...

In order to be a Christian, it is not required that one believe utter nonsense like the notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or that humans and dinosaurs lived on the planet together...

And to have a respect for science doesn't mean that you can't also have an understanding of it's limitations, and simultaneously embrace religious faith...

From my perspective, I have never seen the conflict...




ETA:

Okay, I couldn't post this without remarking on the unfortunately named Professor Oliver Putz...

Good Lord, if your last name is "Putz", (Which is more than bad enough; why that wasn't changed several generations ago eludes me...) why on earth would you further tag your son with a wet first name like "Oliver"?

I imagine Junior High gym class was no picnic for Oliver Putz...

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:40 am
by MajGenl.Meade
In order to be a Christian, it is not required that one believe utter nonsense like the notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or that humans and dinosaurs lived on the planet together...
Agreed. For Christians to see science as "the enemy" is (IMO) anti-Christian. All truth is God's - truth that we seek and which is progressively revealed by discovery. Wooden-headed adherence to thoroughgoing Biblical literalism by folks like "Easter" Ham is as bad as arrogant claims by people like "The Dork" Dawkins to have a special metaphysical knowledge based on science which can never truthfully address the metaphysical.

A plague on both their houses... maybe locusts

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:15 am
by Econoline
I want frogs. Frogs are cuter.

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:45 pm
by Rick
Whether scientific or religious "facts" are "facts" and "truth" is "truth" neither requires belief to be what they are, anything else is speculation.

These arguments are a distraction since most of the time the "things" being argued about have no bearing on one's salvation.

I'm sure someone will want to argue with me about that

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:24 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
Not me

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:17 pm
by rubato
If you are designing machines and want them to work or are making predictions about the physical world which you hope to come true you will rely on science.

All else is bullshit.

The human condition has only improved when superstition has been cast out and science has been left in charge.

There is no "conflict" between science and superstition. Science is how we do things better. Superstition is how we devolve into animalism and murder.

yrs,
rubato

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:15 am
by MajGenl.Meade
rubato wrote: Science is how we do things better. Superstition is how we devolve into animalism and murder.

yrs,
rubato
Zyklon B, that was a good one. H-bomb - vastly better than the A-bomb. Scientific materialism - wonderful results. Scientific rationalism has enabled humans to kill each other faster, better and in infinitely greater numbers than when silly old superstition got in the way. Humans have never needed religion to go about like animals (worse than) and murdering - just improved weaponry. Mind you, religious reasons have been used as well as non-religious ones of course. Just not as often and not as thoroughly.

:roll:

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:07 am
by Lord Jim
Science is how we do things better. Superstition is how we devolve into animalism and murder.

yrs,
rubato

You really have no clue about how either of these works. Please stop posting.

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:55 pm
by rubato
MajGenl.Meade wrote: "...

Zyklon B, that was a good one. H-bomb - vastly better than the A-bomb. Scientific materialism - wonderful results. Scientific rationalism has enabled humans to kill each other faster, better and in infinitely greater numbers than when silly old superstition got in the way. Humans have never needed religion to go about like animals (worse than) and murdering - just improved weaponry. Mind you, religious reasons have been used as well as non-religious ones of course. Just not as often and not as thoroughly.

:roll:

The conditions of human life were unchanged for more than a thousand years until science began to improve them.

Christianity was merely an excuse for murder, torture, and theft. Christianity was merely an excuse for doing nothing and blaming "god" for the outcome.

Smallpox and Polio are the gifts of your god.



yrs,
rubato

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:57 pm
by rubato
There is no "religion versus science". Religion has hurt mankind for thousands of years. Science has made improvement possible.


At the very best, when religion is stripped of all temporal power, it is just noise, monkeys banging cans together, at its most typical religion is evil.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:35 am
by Lord Jim
monkeys banging cans together
Now isn't that a coincidence...

That is precisely the impression you make, with 90% plus of what you post...

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:01 pm
by rubato
Jesus Christ, according to the myth, fed the multitude with loaves and fishes. But he only did it for 1 day and then they were all on their own.


Norman Borlaug used science to teach India (and the rest of the world) how to be self-sufficient in food saving tens of millions from starvation. Every year, for decades.


yrs,
rubato

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:05 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Millions of alcoholics have "recovered" not from scientific means but from spirituality (for many it is religion).
Science has yet to come up with a "pill" that can remove the need of the alcoholics body demanding more alcohol once the first drink has been consumed.
Science has yet to come up with a "pill" that can remove the mental obsession to drink.

There are pills that cause a person to become violently ill if they consume alcohol, but the bodily demand for alcohol is still there once the first drink has been taken, illness be damned.
There are pills that can remove the "pang" of needing a drink but when life problems occur, that pill is no match for the mental obsession to drink.

Only through the self realization of the physical allergy and the removal of the mental obsession through a spiritual connection have millions of alcoholics "recovered".
Medical science has not done well in this "specialty". In fact they send/refer their alcoholic patients to the program as the best (and most times the only) chance of success.

Science may one day "cure" alcoholism, but since the mid 1930's through today, spiritual means is the best answer.

Millions of recovered alcoholics can attest to this. So will many scientists/doctors/researchers.

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:48 pm
by Big RR
And the science of eugenics led to mass sterilizations, the Nazis, and ultimately the holocaust in the quest to make the improved men. The science of "medicine" and "public health" led to the Tuskegee experiments, where men with syphilis were left untreated for years so it could be studied. The science of mind altering drugs led to the unannounced drugging of people with LSD and other hallucinogens. And so on.

All of these were, at least theoretically, defended as trying to improve understanding and improve the lives of many. But the pursuit of science without any moral underpinnings, generally leads to such horrors. Just as religious fervor combined with ignoring morality does. At its best, religion helps to define this moral framework; without it the strong inevitably prey on the weak and helpless.

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:50 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Well said Big RR
Well said indeed.
:ok :clap:

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:45 pm
by MajGenl.Meade
rubato wrote:Jesus Christ, according to the myth, fed the multitude with loaves and fishes. But he only did it for 1 day and then they were all on their own.
Norman Borlaug used science to teach India (and the rest of the world) how to be self-sufficient in food saving tens of millions from starvation. Every year, for decades.
yrs,
rubato
100% of people still die on this earth

Jesus did something about that. Norman Borlaug didn't

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:11 pm
by Lord Jim
Norman Borlaug used science to teach India (and the rest of the world) how to be self-sufficient in food saving tens of millions from starvation. Every year, for decades.
Yeah, and religious charities feed tens of millions of people every year, so naturally from that fact I'm going to conclude that anything that ever comes from religion is a good thing...

Which is basically the flip side of the idiotic, ignorant, non-argument that you are making...

Rube's views on this reflects a level of understanding of reality that basically corresponds to, "Science is made of sugar and spice and everything nice, while religion is made of snails and puppy dog tails."...

It doesn't even qualify as sophomoric; it barely even meets the bar for infantile...

It's embarrassing even to read it...it's so stupid it makes my eyebrows ache...

talk about a monkey banging on a can...

And this goober expects people to believe he's actually a "scientist"? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rube's attitude towards science sure is "unscientific"; it's as blindly faith based and slavishly devotional as any belief system I've ever seen...

Re: Some Thoughtful Commentary on "Religion Versus Science"

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:29 am
by Lord Jim
The fact of the matter of course, is that religion has been used to accomplish many evil purposes, but it has also inspired many too accomplish much good...

And similarly, science has been used to accomplish much evil, (in fact some of the greatest evils in the history of mankind have been perpetrated through the application of tools created by science...as others have already pointed out in this thread... The Holocaust, for example, would not even have been possible without modern technology.) and of course science has also been used to accomplish much good. (Only a fool would deny that.)

The reason that both science and religion have been used to accomplish both good and evil, (I can't believe I'm even having to explain this; I'm sure that every other poster on this board get's this glaringly obvious fact except for rube) is because people, human beings, are the ones that apply both.

And human beings are imperfect; some are more imperfect then others. (And some, like rube, are waaaay more imperfect than others....)

And there are good people and bad people, (Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the opening lecture for the course, Bleeding Obvious 101 :roll: ) so both religion and science can be used to accomplish both good and bad ends...

It is absolutely bizarre...weird...that a supposedly college educated man, (hell, it would be bizarre for a fifth grader) could be so remarkably ignorant of history and contemporary events (and the uses science has been put to) as to believe that only good comes from science. (Or that all good comes from science.)

Absolutely, positively, mind-boggling.... :roll: :shrug :loon