Probably won't hold up, but at least one judge has been reading the Constitution.
MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A federal judge in Wisconsin ruled the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional Thursday, saying the day amounts to a call for religious action.
U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb wrote that the government can no more enact laws supporting a day of prayer than it can encourage citizens to fast during Ramadan, attend a synagogue or practice magic.
"In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual's decision whether and when to pray," Crabb wrote.
Crabb wrote that her ruling was not a judgment on the value of prayer. She noted government involvement in prayer may be constitutional if the conduct serves a "significant secular purpose" and doesn't amount to a call for religious action. But the National Day of Prayer crosses that line, she wrote.
"It goes beyond mere 'acknowledgment' of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context," she wrote. "In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience."
Amen to that!
"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu."
While I opersonally agree with that opinion, the courts are all over the board about prayer if no particular religion is favored/endorsed. My guess is any review will turn on the reasoning behind the "National day of prayer"; if it really is to encourage people to pray, the court's ruling might well be upheld. If not, if it is to encourage people to recognize and (if they want) pray for a particular thing or group (like a day to remember and pray for our veterans or leaders or people who died in the Sep 11 attacks) it may well be upheld as something which is inherently non religious, but just a cultural exercise (much as invocations at Congress or football games are, or the saying "In God We Trust" on our money has been held to be).
Would that more judges saw it the way this one does. As a person who has religious beliefs, I hate to see prayer reduced to a meaningless cultural exercise, and am amazed other religious groups accept or even celebrate that. People can pray, or not, anytime they want to. Why do we need national (or state or local) days of prayer?
Big RR wrote:While I opersonally agree with that opinion, the courts are all over the board about prayer if no particular religion is favored/endorsed.
As a legal matter I don't think that is accurate. The Supremes have been pretty clear that government action that appears to endorse religion over non-religion is unconstitutional; it need not be one religion over another. The trick in this case (for the defendants, at any rate) is going to be characterizing a "National Day of Prayer" as somehow not endorsing religion generally.
Well then, what exactly is prayer? If you say it is supplication or petition for a deity's intercession, or it is praise or glorification of a deity -- which I think it is safe to say are the most commonly understood meanings -- then it is by definition a religious exercise. If you charcterize it as contemplation and reflection, then that might have (in theory anyway) a secular purpose. But for those who believe in a deity, doesn't that secular definition degrade the significnce of prayer? Or is it simply a sham so as to justify governmental endorsement of religion?
Historians have also recorded other ceremonies of thanks among European settlers in North America, including British colonists in Berkeley Plantation, Virginia. At this site near the Charles River in December of 1619, a group of British settlers led by Captain John Woodlief knelt in prayer and pledged "Thanksgiving" to God for their healthy arrival after a long voyage across the Atlantic. This event has been acknowledged by some scholars and writers as the official first Thanksgiving among European settlers on record. Whether at Plymouth, Berkeley Plantation, or throughout the Americas, celebrations of thanks have held great meaning and importance over time. The legacy of thanks, and particularly of the feast, have survived the centuries as people throughout the United States gather family, friends, and enormous amounts of food for their yearly Thanksgiving meal.
Thanksgiving or Thanksgiving Day is a harvest festival celebrated primarily in the United States and Canada. Traditionally, Thanksgiving is associated with giving thanks to God for the harvest and expressing gratitude. While historically religious in origin, Thanksgiving is now primarily identified as a secular holiday.[1]
Granted the meaning has become secular as pointed out, and I don't celebrate ANY holiday as a Religious Observance anyway.
The loss of a national prayer day is just one more thing.
However there seems to be a distinction between "Thanks" and "Prayer".
Without a difference...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is
If you get a mandatory day off work for it (paid) Then I protest about its loss!!!
If not, WGAF.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
"In 1170 A.D., a certain Welsh prince, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, sailed away from his homeland, which was filled with war and strife and battles between his brothers. Yearning to be away from the feuds and quarrels, he took his ships and headed west, seeking a better place. He returned to Wales brimming with tales of the new land he found--warm and golden and fair. His tales convinced more than a few of his fellow countrymen, and many left with him to return to this wondrous new land, far across the sea.
This wondrous new land is believed to be what is now Mobile Bay, Alabama. Time has left several blank pages between the legend of Madoc and the "history" of America, with its reports of white Indians who speak Welsh, and these blank pages have been the subject of much controversy in certain circles over the five centuries since Columbus discovered the New World."
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Sue U wrote:Well then, what exactly is prayer? If you say it is supplication or petition for a deity's intercession, or it is praise or glorification of a deity -- which I think it is safe to say are the most commonly understood meanings -- then it is by definition a religious exercise. If you charcterize it as contemplation and reflection, then that might have (in theory anyway) a secular purpose. But for those who believe in a deity, doesn't that secular definition degrade the significnce of prayer? Or is it simply a sham so as to justify governmental endorsement of religion?
One or the other; both are equally bad. Government making religious exercise somethow secular is an impermissible intrusion into that religious practice, and is as offensive as the religious trying to shove their beliefs down the throats of the rest of the populace. Just as religon should keep its collective nose out of politics, the government shoudl refrain from secularizing religious practices to make them more "palatable".
