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Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:59 am
by Gob
HUNDREDS of ultra-Orthodox Jewish men have delayed the takeoff of a trans-Atlantic flight by refusing to sit next to women, and then caused chaos once it was airborne, a report says.
The El Al flight from New York, with non-Orthodox and secular Jews also on board, eventually arrived at Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion airport before dawn on Wednesday in time to celebrate the Jewish new year, according to news website Ynet.
But as one female passenger described her trip, “it was an 11-hour-long nightmare.”
As people boarded the flight, ultra-Orthodox men began asking women to change seats so they did not have to sit next to them, some even offering them money to do so, witnesses told Ynet. When some women refused, including one who was sitting with her husband and identified herself as Galit, the men stood in the aisles, delaying the flight’s departure.
The men eventually sat down, allowing the plane to take off, but then many got up and blocked the aisles.
“I went to the bathroom, and it was mission impossible,” Galit said.
The ultra-Orthodox follow a strict policy of gender segregation and, in Israel, have insisted that women ride at the back of buses. When a light railway was being built in Jerusalem a few years ago, there was even talk of having separate cars for men and women, but that never materialised.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:14 pm
by rubato
Three branches of one tree. The most backwards, retrograde elements of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all hate women and want to treat them like animals.
With that reproductive strategy I am surprised that they survive more than a generation. But still they do.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:39 pm
by Sue U
The "ultra-Orthodox" are a plague on society and their antics cannot be tolerated in a civilized democratic nation. They should have been thrown off the plane immediately and prosecuted for interference with the flight crew.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:52 pm
by Big RR
Since it was El Al and going to Israel, I'd bet the ultra orthodox got a law passed in Israel allowing this sort of harassment. They seems to wiled a lot of influence in the knesset..
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:00 pm
by oldr_n_wsr
Maybe El Al should have an "Orthodox only" flight.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:13 pm
by Scooter
Sue U wrote:The "ultra-Orthodox" are a plague on society and their antics cannot be tolerated in a civilized democratic nation. They should have been thrown off the plane immediately and prosecuted for interference with the flight crew.
That was my first thought. If a similar commotion had been made for any other reason, the offenders would have all been tossed off the plane and charged. But hey, a religious excuse always gets a pass for boorish behaviour.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:27 pm
by Big RR
I agree Scooter, so long as the religion is the primary religion in the land; somehow I would bet if moslems did the same thing on an EL AL (or even US ) flight it wouldn't have lasted one minute. I'd bet most US airlines would have had the "ultra-orthodox" jews arrested as well, but might have tolerated it if it were, e.g., a fundamentalist christian group protesting something; you don't alienate your client base or those with pull in the government.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:49 pm
by Sue U
The plane was in New York and presumably subject to US law, particularly since interference with the flight crew on one flight can disrupt all air traffic at the airport.
Israel's government is (at least nominally) secular, and the "ultra-Orthdox" (Haredi) have actually been losing power of late -- as evidenced by the rapid rise of Yesh Atid, a centrist party whose platform expressly calls for increasing religious pluralism and ending the Orthodox monopoly on religious policy -- and which gained the second highest number of seats in Knesset elections last year, after the Likud-Yisrael Beiteinu coalition. I think Israeli society in general has just about had it with the Haredi, as evidenced by the recent decision of the High Court of Justice to strike down the law allowing for their national service exemptions, among other governmental and non-governmental moves.
These jerks can charter their own goddam plane if it's too much for them to sit next to other paying passengers on a commercial flight. And if they do, I hope it falls into the deepest part of the sea.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:10 pm
by Big RR
sue--I defer to you about US law applying or not (I'm not sure), but El AL was the entity which likely made the choice not to call the authorities, and my guess is they decided as they did be cause it was jews as opposed to moslems or even chrisitans.
As for the Israeli government being secular, certainly it is, but it has made many concession to the ultra orthodox to bring them into the ruling coalitions. Things may well be changing, but I'll bet change comes slowly. The same is happening with the religious right and their influence in the US.
And while you might be happy of they charter their own plane (personally I don't really care as I wouldn't really want to go to Israel), but I doubt EL Al would like to be seen as pushing them to do so, and thereby alienating some of their biggest client base.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:33 pm
by Sue U
Big RR wrote:
As for the Israeli government being secular, certainly it is, but it has made many concession to the ultra orthodox to bring them into the ruling coalitions. Things may well be changing, but I'll bet change comes slowly. The same is happening with the religious right and their influence in the US.
And while you might be happy of they charter their own plane (personally I don't really care as I wouldn't really want to go to Israel), but I doubt EL Al would like to be seen as pushing them to do so, and thereby alienating some of their biggest client base.
The ultra-Orthodox parties are down to 18 seats in Knesset and are no longer part of the governmental coalition. In fact, squeezing them out of any governmental role was the direct aim of both Yesh Atid and Habayit Hayehudi, the latter being a right-wing "Modern Orthodox" party that also made a surprising showing in the elections. (There is a substantial rift between the "Modern Orthodox" and the "ultra-Orthodox" Haredi.) Significantly, the ultra-orthodox Shas party, which has forever been a part of right/center-right coalitions, is now out of the government altogether, as is the smaller UTJ faction. These are positive signs that Israel is heading back toward social sanity.
And El-Al would do just fine without these nutjobs -- there are plenty of other people to fill up their flights.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:56 pm
by Scooter
So if I wear a dress, I will be able to get a row all to myself on an El-Al flight?
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:06 pm
by Sue U
You'd have better luck if you might be menstruating, too.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:51 pm
by Big RR
Sue--you description of the state of Israeli politics is encouraging as to the influence of the ultra orthodox. One can only hope.
As for El Al being better off, well--you convince them. My guess is that is the reason they didn't contact the authorities when they started the trouble in the first place.
As for menstruation, they couldn't get the rule through allowing portable mikvahs on planes?
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:01 pm
by Lord Jim
Scooter wrote:So if I wear a dress, I will be able to get a row all to myself on an El-Al flight?
Sue U wrote:You'd have better luck if you might be menstruating, too.
Ya know, that's a mental image I could easily have gone all day without...
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:44 pm
by Scooter
After BigRR's contribution, I was going to say, could we get back to discussing cute dogs retrieving lost items off airplanes?
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:52 am
by Beer Sponge
Scooter wrote:So if I wear a dress, I will be able to get a row all to myself on an El-Al flight?
I'd still sit next to you. As long as my dress didn't clash with yours.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:22 pm
by TPFKA@W
Ha. I might be going to Israel in the future to see an old friend who moved there. She has an orthodox son. I am not sure he is this orthodox, perhaps there are different levels of that. I don't know a lot about dem Jews. I might have to find an unorthodox manner to get there. Or fly with them and order everyone a bloody mary.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:02 pm
by rubato
Really, how do misogynists like this reproduce themselves?
A rhetorical question, I know. There are just as many men willing to surrender their personal autonomy and dignity to the point of slavishness.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:24 pm
by Sue U
TPFKA@W wrote:Ha. I might be going to Israel in the future to see an old friend who moved there. She has an orthodox son. I am not sure he is this orthodox, perhaps there are different levels of that. I don't know a lot about dem Jews. I might have to find an unorthodox manner to get there. Or fly with them and order everyone a bloody mary.
We are a complicated people. Bloody Marys do help, though. I recommend having several.
Re: Stop the plane, there are women!!
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:05 pm
by Guinevere
rubato wrote:Really, how do misogynists like this reproduce themselves?
A rhetorical question, I know. There are just as many men willing to surrender their personal autonomy and dignity to the point of slavishness.
yrs,
rubato
Yep. And unfortunately, when you are raised in that world and don't know better (even if you should) it is often difficult to change your mindset, much less break free. Rejecting your history and your heritage is never easy or simple. Of course, its not impossible, either.